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SCOTT OXFORD 02.600 [music] G'day, I'm Scott Oxford and welcome to Brandjam. This is the podcast where we love to jam about brand because brand is our jam. Today I'm jamming with Sean Marsh. Sean's an ethical business designer and strategist, who helps purpose-drive organisations with big problems. He's also host of Growing Concern, a podcast for the unapologetically purpose-driven. I'm going to dig into what that means as well. And unsurprisingly, he has a very deep passion for the environment. He's done a little work with ethical organisations over the years and he probably counts his proudest achievement is the fact that his creative work has contributed to the divestment of many millions of dollars out of fossil fuels and back into renewable energy in ethical companies. So he's certainly a do-gooder of the best kind. And I'm just looking forward to delving into what makes brands ethical, what that means to customers, and just hearing about his story. Anyone who's deeply passionate about anything and makes it their business and personal mission has got some really strong reasons to believe. So I'm looking forward to digging into that today with Sean. Welcome, Sean, thanks for joining me.

SEAN MARSH 01:21.856 Hey, Scott. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:25.013 How does it feel to be on the other side? Because you're like me, you're usually the interviewer, not the guest. Shoe's on the other foot, hey?

SEAN MARSH 01:31.238 It's actually more nerve-racking. It's bizarre. I think with my own podcast, there's a level of control that you have. But for me, I'm sitting here like, "What's he going to ask me? What am I going to talk about?" Yeah. It's good nerves, right? Yeah.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:45.493 Absolutely. A little bit of nervous tension always helps. And I figure we're in this together. Everybody's at various stages on their journey and you certainly know a lot more about this subject than I do, so let's dig into it. I want to start by asking you how purpose and ethics became your thing. Where did it all start for you?

SEAN MARSH 02:09.517 Yeah. So I make this sort of prominent on my personal website. It's an origin story that happened and then I'd forgotten about it, and then rifling through old things-- my mum keeps a lot of old things. She's very sentimental. There's this old newspaper, and my mum and dad and my sister and I were on the front cover. And I was like, "Oh," and I had this flashback of this memory when I was walking on the foreshore of McCrae, which is south of Mornington in Victoria. And we noticed there were holes in the trees lying the foreshore. At closer inspection, my dad figured out that someone was drilling holes into these trees and pouring acid in there to kill them. And there was a row of brand new apartments that had gone up on the cliff sides. And I was just like, this moment hit me where I was like, "People destroy the environment for their own personal gain." And I was 10, and fast forward a few years later, I'm still just shocked and I'm trying my absolute best to do something about it. And yeah, it was a [simmer?] moment for me. I haven't been able to shake that since. And I think a lot of formative things happen when you're young and just sort of shape who you are and it certainly has shaped who I am, I think.

SCOTT OXFORD 03:31.285 Yeah. It's an early penny drop, isn't it, when you realise that adults can't necessarily be trusted to do the right thing. And in business, businesses will follow their own agenda and not necessarily-- that's a natural lead in to where we're talking about businesses. I was going to say-- brands, what defines an ethical brand versus, I guess, it's not a non-ethical one, but.

SEAN MARSH 04:00.377 It's just the standard. It's such a hard thing to say. It is a grey area. I mean there's a myriad of different ways you could cut this up, but I guess for me if a business exists and part of their mission is to leave the world in a better place than when they entered it, that to me says a lot about them in terms of ethics and being purpose-driven. But yeah, so I mean you could be plant-based foods. You could divest from fossil fuels. You could be an organisation that shares a percentage of profits to help homelessness. These sorts of things. So yeah, there is no one fit for what this is. But I think what truly makes an ethical brand is how people believe in them and trust that they're doing what they say. You can quite easily become an unethical brand if your actions don't meet up with your words, yeah.

SCOTT OXFORD 05:02.194 Yeah, because it's almost like that idea that you can make up for your wrongs by doing a number of rights, and again, this is going to sound terribly naive but isn't that essentially what carbon credits are all about? It's a bit--

SEAN MARSH 05:14.830 Ah, I'm deeply bothered by carbon credits. I even have an episode - I don't know if you've listened to it or not; it's one of the first ones I released - where there's a certification getting around and a lot of businesses have started slapping it on their homepages and their paraphernalia and stuff to sort of quell any concerns that perhaps these companies aren't doing the right thing. And the companies that have got this certification are definitely not doing the right thing. So when it comes to offsets, I believe it only really works if it's a punitive thing. Businesses don't pay into things that don't make money back for them, typically, unless it's a part of their stance on the world I suppose.

SCOTT OXFORD 06:01.744 Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So on the one hand, it's about a brand being true to what it's saying, but it's also about in that truth of what it's doing, it's actually about doing something positive. So positive change. So my business, for example, our purpose is to make a meaningful difference to people's lives. So we're creative. We're strategic. We're all of those things. But that's the decision-maker, the brands we choose to work with, certain sectors we work with and choose not to work with. If we can't achieve that goal and that purpose then we sort of choose not to. But we could have a [new?] purpose, and I think I'm with you in terms of this idea that you can't make up for your wrongs just by doing a right. And so for a brand to be able to honestly say that they're ethical there's almost got to be this standard, hasn't there, where we all agree that this makes you ethical because remember a few years ago it think it was the Heart Foundation tick was appearing on products that were, I think, loaded with sugar. Something like that. It had met a criteria and it was selling itself, I guess-- it may not have been the Heart Foundation. I should be careful throwing aspersions around. But it was essentially this categorization that said something was healthy but completely missed out on the other aspect which was deeply unhealthy. It's the same thing, isn't it?

SEAN MARSH 07:34.683 Yeah, it definitely is. And I think what it does is it creates confusion for people because people want to do the right thing. Deep down we are all that 10-year-old kid that believes that everyone's doing the right thing and then reminded that it's not the case. And so we look for brands. I mean everybody does, in some capacity looks for something that actually makes you feel a bit better about your purchasing decisions or whatever it is, where you put your money or where you don't. And so, yeah, it's hard to know who's doing the right thing. And one thing I actually really wanted to talk about is the expectation that people put on ethical brands and purpose-driven brands. It's like New Year's Eve. It's supposed to be the best night of the year. And so you're going with the most highest expectations, and it never meets those or very rarely exceeds them. That's the same sort of level that people-- they hold them to this high esteem. And the higher they are, the harder they can fall. And so in your example with-- like I say, for example, a food certification thing, everyone was like, "Oh, yeah. They are the bee's knees," of whatever it is they do. And it turns out, no, actually, they're doing stuff that is completely hypocritical to what I thought and believed in. It causes so much confusion and frustration and anger as well. If you've emotionally bought into this organisation, whatever it might be, it hurts when they do wrong by you. It truly does. And I think they have an opportunity as a brand to be the best that a brand is supposed to be. Because as I listen to some of your episodes, people talk all the time about a brand takes a little piece of you, or you give a little piece of yourself to them. [crosstalk]--

SCOTT OXFORD 09:22.479 Yeah. It's like a relationship. It's not a person, but we're forming a relationship there with trust and connection. Yeah. And yeah, we, to invest that part of ourselves, to even-- I've got a new question I'm now asking on top of, what brands that mean something to you? Is there a brand that you actually love? Because a lot of us have a very, very strong emotional connection to a brand. And when it then compromises that, it's almost like a televangelist who's caught in infidelity or something like that. It is a betrayal of your beliefs, of what you stand for almost. And you feel almost dirty that you've been a part of this thing, or you're rocked in terms of where you sort of stand. And I think particularly as a kid, that's got to be absolutely-- that betrayal of trust. But as adults, we hold that really importantly too. Do you think for us-- for the average adult who's maybe not as bought in and passionate, who are just looking to try and do the right thing, do you think the ethical branding space is working for people, or do you think it's largely quite confusing and challenging because there's no sort of one set of parameters that everyone adheres to?

SEAN MARSH 10:45.841 So you're talking about people later in life, so they have families and that sort of thing, or are you talking about just in general?

SCOTT OXFORD 10:52.784 I think probably in general. So for the average for all of us who maybe aren't quite as able to discern and dig and understand - we're sort of taking it, I guess, at face value - do you think the landscape of ethical brands are easy to access, or do you think it's still a very confusing space?

SEAN MARSH 11:14.593 It's still a very confusing space. I actually am working on a project at the moment which I would kind of refer to as maybe the "I select" of ethical choices with the lens of climate change mitigation-- because you're right. It doesn't exist. I think when you're making a purchasing decision - say you're going to buy some laundry liquid - that's when you look at just laundry liquid and you've got your products that you compare. And then you might go, "I want the one with the green leaf on because it makes me feel a bit better." But who's to tell if that's actually any good? I think a lot of companies have caught on to the fact that you might make a more likely decision to buy something that's in a green bottle with a leaf that has some made-up little icon than the alternative which is bright blue and it says Powerball on it for something, but, yeah, I don't think there is-- there doesn't really exist one place to go and vet, just en masse, products and brands. It just doesn't--

SCOTT OXFORD 12:11.531 Yeah, so there's real room for, as you say, a service that helps people discern or understand without having-- who may not have the time or the means to do the level of research they want to do, but to be able to satisfy themselves that a brand is--

SEAN MARSH 12:25.894 I mean, I refer to it as ethical overwhelm that people get. And it's something, when you're passionate and you're driven to find something that actually isn't going to leave a mark on the world, or whatever it might be, you do get to a point where you're like, "I don't know the answer." And then you just give up.

SCOTT OXFORD 12:46.492 Yeah, and maybe that's half the plan, bamboozle everybody. [laughter]

SEAN MARSH 12:53.441 I do believe that's true, especially with finance. I've spent a bit of time looking at Super in banks, and I've even worked in the Super Fund. And their bread and butter is confusion, honestly. The finance industry is-- there's zero transparency. Some of the worst ones who invest heavily in fossil fuels, they just end up rebranding, because it's kind of all they've got as their point of difference. So it is interesting and again, if you wanted to steer away from entity A, and now they're entity B, you end up going with them, you're like, "Hang on. It's just different window dressing. You duped me."

SCOTT OXFORD 13:35.012 Yeah, we've just changed our make-up or put on a different suit. You were sort of referring there, I think, before, to putting green-- basically the appearance of being good. I mean, that's greenwashing, isn't it? Greenwashing was a big thing a few years ago, certainly in our industry, but to be aware of. That's obviously still happening?

SEAN MARSH 13:58.848 Big time. Yeah. Yeah, big time. And this is why I always say to anybody who is a purpose-driven organisation of any kind, "Ditch the green leaf. Don't put eco in your name, because you're going to come up against other companies that can do the same thing. Your point of difference needs to be something else." And there are a lot of great brands out there that have an amazing point of difference that isn't eco, green leaf, or whatever, right? I can think of one off the top of my head, Who Gives a Crap.

SCOTT OXFORD 14:33.636 I was just thinking of them, too.

SEAN MARSH 14:34.749 Amazing. Who would have thought that I would be talking to my friends about a toilet paper company, and the cool wrapping it came in? It's nuts. They're incredible. They have a great voice and tone; they have amazing customer service. They're hilarious. They've even got this meta-level marketing on their delivery boxes where it says, "Hey, delivery guy, consider us next time you're on the throne." It's amazing.

SCOTT OXFORD 15:01.630 Yeah. And they're sort of trading-- I think they're showing their authenticity in every aspect of their brand. And it's probably a good example where it's such a cheap and easy way to try and throw a green leaf on something, but brand is so much more than just a little sort of green logo, or whatever. It's actually in every aspect of that behaviour and the way they talk and the way they think and the way they sort of feel. And it almost suggests to me now that we're not just growing in education, but we're growing in discernment as well, and maybe we're reading many more of those subliminals and connecting in with that kind of thing. Because I don't automatically think of Who Gives a Crap as being necessarily sustainable, but everything I know about them, everything they've given to me, suggests that that would make absolute sense. Do you know what I mean? So I'm connecting with their brand on the authenticity of what they stand for, and making some pretty safe assumptions I think, that there are business that I can trust.

SEAN MARSH 16:07.028 And I think the why behind all this is that they-- I mean, I've seen a lot of millennials talking about this stuff online is that they want an organisation to do the right thing, but they also want all the bells and whistles that come with the standard. And so Who Gives a Crap I think gives that to them, and obviously others--

SCOTT OXFORD 16:25.513 Yeah. It's beyond the hygiene factors. Excuse the pun.

SEAN MARSH 16:31.371 That's good. So yeah, I think that you want something that does the right thing, but also you want something that actually does-- their offering is solid. And it's possible to do it. There's many organisations I see today that really just rest on the laurels of the fact that they reforest areas, which is great, but outside of that, the marketing sucks, their branding sucks, their social game is low. Yeah. If you look around for ethical jobs and stuff, there's very little marketing that's being spent in there. And some of the companies that do spend the time on brand or densities marketing and consumer insights and UX and all that sort of stuff are doing extremely well. There's a guy I might on my podcast soon, and he's got a carbon-neutral car certification. You pay a certain amount, depending on how many kilometres you use in your car, and it'll offset those emissions. You slap it on the back of your car and say, "Check it out, for an entire year driving around, I've made no impact on the planet." And then you get to see where that money goes. So yeah, there's a lot of room out there. Well, the reason I bring him up is that he spent majority of his start-up cash on design, branding, and marketing.

SCOTT OXFORD 17:49.493 Well, that's a question I'd like to get someone from Who Gives a Crap on this podcast, for example, because it seems so effortless, what they do. It's almost naturally flows out of them. Again, terrible pun, sorry. I cannot help myself. You can tell I'm a writer, can't you?

SEAN MARSH 18:09.355 We should just wrap this one up, hey?

SCOTT OXFORD 18:12.903 Don't wipe the topic-- no, got to stop the jokes.

SEAN MARSH 18:18.965 I'm here for it, mate. I'm here for it.

SCOTT OXFORD 18:20.606 Yeah. Thank you. It's our poor listeners that I'm worried for. But yeah, I think there is a natural outworking of their authenticity. And that, to my mind, the really interesting thing about brand there is it is all about your business strategy first and foremost. I'm a big believer that if you're going to create a brand strategy, it needs to align to that, what your purpose is. For an organisation that is ethical, I'm getting this very, very strong suggestion that long before you hit branding and marketing, it's actually about just knowing really authentically what you stand for and what you sort of, I guess, stand against. And I posted that recently on LinkedIn. It's just a little post saying we see lots of organisations that are very willing to promote what they stand for, but it is that flip side, which is saying, "Actually, no, we don't sort of stand for these other things." And I think environment is one of those areas that has probably done better than other areas where people say, "We are not willing to do business that damages the planet, that shortens our life spans, that risk the human race." But certainly, there are other areas and I think as your podcast goes on, when you explore more and more of purpose, you'll get into human rights and into all those other aspects as well, which is, again, an authentic, ethical brand, to my mind, basically says, "We will not tolerate and be a part of these things." And I think we've seen it in terms of-- particularly, in areas of racism and just other areas where businesses say, "We're not willing to tolerate that." And I was really proud of one of my contacts. She said, "Oh, I've never thought of that." And she's just proceeded to say this beautiful list of things that, "Here's what we stand for, if you adhere to that, we will not tolerate selecting one person being more important than another based on what they wear on their head or the colour of their skin or their sexuality, all of these things." Such a big, powerful, beautiful statement. I was just like, "Aw, I'm so proud of that." Because again, she was not working out what was going to be a great angle here. She was just saying, "What do we stand for? And let's stand by that." So who else is doing it well? Who Gives a Crap is doing it well. Who else have you seen doing it well? One of my former guests, for example, she loved her super fund, Ethical Super because it was the only option she could find at the time. And she's a pretty smart cookie who looked into it and she trusts them to be ethical, as their name suggests. Great name.

SEAN MARSH 21:10.935 It's funny, isn't it? Because everything I've just said sort of flies out the window when you're talking about Australian Ethical because when you think of super and you want to do the right thing, it's the obvious choice. Yeah. Straight out of the gate, you're like, "Well, I'm just going to go with them." And yeah, there is only a tiny handful of super funds that are actually, like you say, saying, "We do this. We don't do that." They're very clear on the delineation between what they stand for and what they don't. There are hundreds-- I think there's like up to 500 super funds in this country, $2.9 trillion invested. It's one of the largest pools of money in the world. And a very, very, very, very tiny fraction of that is actually being spent on the right stuff, and a lot of it is being spent on the wrong stuff. So I'm deeply passionate about divestment. Your listeners can't tell, but I wear my divestor t-shirt loud and proud.

SCOTT OXFORD 22:05.164 I love it, yeah. Yeah. So for our listeners, for those of us who don't know what divestment is about, can you just give us a quick explanation?

SEAN MARSH 22:14.668 Sure. Yeah. So obviously investment is putting stuff into things. Divestment is taking it out, but with the caveat that you will then reinvest it back into something that is the antithesis of the thing you removed it from. So in my case and a lot of people, it's divestment from fossil fuels, tobacco, gambling, human rights abuses through supply chains, old forest logging. The list goes on, animal cruelty. Yeah. So once people sort of twig to the fact that their money is being used behind their backs is being used in these things that they don't morally agree with, there's an interesting emotional sort of process that they go through of anger, possibly denial, and then action. So a lot of what I put out on my podcast and also just in general online is helping people see that as a problem, and then how they can then do something about it. And the impact is enormous compared to the effort you got to put in. But a lot of people get-- they [inaudible] about the, "Oh, but the fees and the returns and stuff," which I get. It's a natural thing because we've been sort of coached by finance companies to worry about this sort of stuff. But your money's being invested for a future that may not be there because of that investment, which is this bizarre-- do you know what I'm saying?

SCOTT OXFORD 23:41.246 That sort of brings it into sharp focus because I do appreciate that we're all in this balance of, "I want this, but not at the cost most of that. But then I still-- I want my powerful petrol-driven car, but then at the cost of the environment, I'm sort of torn, I guess. And in these cases here, it's about striking that balance, getting someone over the line, I should say. So that you can sort of say, "I do want that, but I actually want this more. This matters more to me."

SEAN MARSH 24:09.391 Yep. And I think that's where brand plays a large role. If, like the reason I searched my future-- sorry, my super originally, was because of the people that I met behind the company. They were me. Essentially like a mirrored version of me, but they were doing these amazing things. Moving up to a billion dollars into the right places. And I was like, "How do I be a part of this?" And so I bought into the people. I bought into the community that was created and I haven't looked back since. But if you haven't had that personal connection and you just see it as another institution establishment type organisation that's going to take your money and do what it want's with it, you won't have that buy-in. You'll question it. Which is healthy but you won't actually just go all in.

SCOTT OXFORD 24:57.055 On that topic of what brands sort of, stand for and against, you led a project, or you did some significant work-in-project called, "This is not business as usual." Can you tell us a bit about that?

SEAN MARSH 25:07.870 Yeah. So proud of this. That's when I was working at Future Super, and we had the idea of backing the school strikers, late September, last year. It was like a global thing. Everyone sort of knows about Greta Thunberg, and how she mobilised schoolkids literally everywhere. And there was an enormous amount of people that were on the sidelines, showing support, but not really getting involved. And we identified that it was essentially workers, which is the majority of the population, wanted to support the kids, but work was getting in the way. So we thought, "Okay, how do we get workers involved." And that would be to go straight to the companies themselves and say, "You should let your workers have a day off so that they can go to this march. Sign up to this." And we started with 14 pledges, and then within a fortnight it ballooned into over three thousand. We had Camp America, Atlassian, Australian Ethical, as you mentioned. We had KeepCup, Energeries, Canva, Redbubble, the list goes on. Just nonsense. It was crazy. Every day we'd come into work and there would be another hundred plus, yeah, yeah, I'm keen. I'm keen. And so my role in that was design and website development.

SCOTT OXFORD 26:30.291 We'll put the link in the notes, as well, so you can go and check it out. And look at this beautiful long list of all these incredible logos of these incredible Australian companies who all put their money where their mouth was on that day.

SEAN MARSH 26:42.360 Yeah. It was fantastic. Like I said, it just blew out of proportions, and we were just sitting there with our head in our hands and like, "How is this happening?" And so, were in--

SCOTT OXFORD 26:52.968 You went viral buddy. That's what you did.

SEAN MARSH 26:55.198 Oh mate. First time ever. [laughter]

SCOTT OXFORD 26:58.128 Okay. [laughter] I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting, so well done you.

SEAN MARSH 27:01.496 You'll get that. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody.

SCOTT OXFORD 27:05.623 Yeah. But what an amazing thing. And what a cool, put-your-money-where- your-mouth-is, thing for a superannuation company to do. because I just personally, I see a lot of superannuation companies, who I just feel possibly have a little bit too much money to spend, and just splash it around on things that-- I just wonder why. And I'm not even talking about their behind-the-scene investments. I mean, I'm in the Ad industry, I'm very happy for them to come and spend money with me. But sometimes you just wonder whether that money could be put to better use.

SEAN MARSH 27:45.208 Interesting that you talk about the Ad industry. There's an organisation at the moment called Comms Declare. And it's all about communication companies taking a stand. And it's a similar kind of set up to Not Business As Usual where they pledge to say, "We're going to turn down jobs for companies we know are just wrecking the planet." And there's hundreds on there now. And it's sort of like you were saying before. It's just as important to say no as it is to say yes. So that's been interesting to watch that unfold. Yeah.

SCOTT OXFORD 28:19.587 It's really hard. As a business owner I have family to provide for and I have staff to employ. And it's really hard sometimes when organisations whose values don't align with yours approach you and want you to work for them and you just have to not even entertain it. And it's tough and it's not tough, if you know what I mean. It's like we just wouldn't do that. But yeah, there are organisations who, by their nature, are not necessarily evil, but aspects of what they do destroy families. Gambling's one of those areas where by its nature it's not evil but it certainly takes a toll. And so gambling companies have lots of money to spend, and not necessarily all tacky campaigns either. There are some lovely opportunities. Beautiful Lotto ads over the years. Beautiful ones with this moment where a battler has their windfall and everything and this gorgeous thing. And yeah, I'd love to make a beautiful ad like that. But again, it just doesn't align with the values of what we sort of stand for. And so it is tough for any organisation at any level to say, "We will not do this," when there's a commercial imperative to do it. And I think that's really the gist of what we're sort of saying here is an ethical brand puts its values above its profits really.

SEAN MARSH 29:54.708 Yeah. Interesting to think, especially if you look at the mission statement of a couple of other companies. Uber, I think it's, what is it? 'Success at all costs' or something crazy like that? Anyway, that's the general gist. But that essentially precludes them from being an ethical company. Which is, yeah, it's hard. I guess you have to say to yourself, "Okay, what do we stand for?" And yes, saying no to certain things because you know it's the right thing to do, but it means a little hit to the wallet, that's hard, right? Totally empathise with that. And a lot of people listening to this might think I'm just some radical idealist. But I've made a career out of doing this work. People seek me out to talk about this stuff. And people ask me for my advice on certain things. And so it is possible. It's just a matter of using the system to change the system. And so I'm not a typical environmental activist in that sense. I don't walk around in hemp pants, for example.

SCOTT OXFORD 30:57.725 [laugh] I was going to ask how unapologetically purpose driven-- where that impacts what sort of pants you wear or whether you even wear pants. It's Friday.

SEAN MARSH 31:10.067 I guess the reason I say unapologetically purpose driven is because I like to be a friendly, approachable guy. But when it comes to an organisation that I know is doing the wrong thing by their customers and the world in general, I'm not a nice guy. And I think we need to hold businesses like this to account and that's where I'm unapologetic.

SCOTT OXFORD 31:36.599 Yeah. No, I love it. I think it's a beautiful way of basically saying, "I'm not militant, but don't think that I'm soft." When it comes to to standing up for what I believe in. This is it. And like I said, I really love that. And I love watching businesses do that. I love watching Thankyou who made a living on bringing bottled water to us and beautiful, trackable journeys on the bottle to see where the profits where going to help people in the world, who've now sort of said, "Putting plastic bottles into the world is no longer." It probably shouldn't have ever been part of what we did, but it was. We were able to do a lot of good through it and now that we're established, we can divest ourselves from that damage.

SEAN MARSH 32:28.428 See, that's an awesome example of, "This is our action backed up by our words." I even think I saw someone on LinkedIn from Thankyou saying, "It was just dumb to make plastic bottled waters." That's a big deal for anyone-- even a cofounder, I even think it might have been, to say something about their entire business model. So I'm looking forward to see where this goes next for them.

SCOTT OXFORD 32:54.641 Yeah. Well, I think that was what I was going to ask you before as well is that businesses who've done the wrong thing, a true, honest mea culpa means you have an opportunity then to change things and to do better. And that's about a long way to earning trust back, isn't it? It's sort of pretty tough in order to rebuild it, but what other options do they have?

SEAN MARSH 33:28.378 Yeah. Do you remember seeing Thug Kitchen?

SCOTT OXFORD 33:31.660 No.

SEAN MARSH 33:32.318 Have you ever seen-- so remember you were talking about that your friend who made a stance on we're staunchly anti-racist, and we're all about inclusivity and Thug Kitchen is essentially like a vegan cookbook that just basically just cusses all the time. And they're fun and it's disruptive because it reflects the vernacular of their readership, which is, in a way, that hasn't been done before. And they came to the conclusion that after much feedback over years and years, it took the BLM movement for them to go, "Actually, there are potentially racist routes of Thug Kitchen and we're two white people. We should probably do something about it." There was crazy positive and negative comments coming out of everywhere, but it was the brave thing to do. Some might not agree with it, but some might think it's political correctness gone too far or whatever. But the people that they did it for said, "Thank you for doing that. I've been a customer for a while and I raise this with you and now, you're doing something about it, and that means an enormous amount to me that you've done this." It's not changing your entire business's name and your brand, right?

SCOTT OXFORD 34:54.031 Yeah. And look, I have some colleagues here in Brisbane, little production company that have been called Two Little Indians for years. And they're beautiful, lovely guys who would never, ever, ever have ever wanted to cause offence to anyone, but they felt challenged to change their name. I had been at [Brown?] recently talking about the fact that she referred publicly to someone being her spirit animal. And again, particularly for the Native Americans, for whom that is deeply important and part of their spirituality, she had no intention of doing that. And in her she just kind of went, "You know what? Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't realise I was doing it but now that I think about it, yeah, I need not to say that." And withdrew and moved on. And I just think the pendulum has to sometimes swing a little harder in the wrong direction, too far, in order for it to land back where it needs to be. And I think sometimes brands need to do that. And there's nothing more powerful, as well as authentic, as a brand like Thankyou saying what a dumb thing that was. But retrospect is an amazing thing, particularly in business. And businesses and brands are very complex things. And we've talked a lot on this podcast around how do you understand your customer and what they think and what they mean. And there's huge amounts of money spent on trying to connect with and understand customers and know all that. But ultimately, it's in these situations being able to sort of monitor what really matters to them. And, as I've discovered in our business, by sticking by our values and standing for what we stand for, it actually attracts like minds to you. And it actually is better for business than--

SEAN MARSH 37:00.150 Hundred percent, yeah. People will see you as this lighthouse in a sea of choice as someone who implicitly understands them. I ran a small little freelance design thingie for a couple of years and I only worked with vegan, ethical, environmental groups and organisations. That was the only people I would work with, because I knew that that was the best way to make the most impact. And it went from gym owners calling me and old mate's bakery round the corner to some pretty big people getting interested across the globe, saying, "Someone like you doesn't exist." And it was a shock. And it wasn't right for me at the time and so I moved on to other things. But it just goes to show that if you niche down it's like moths to a flame, essentially. Because if you're everything for everybody, you're nothing really special for anyone, in my opinion.

SCOTT OXFORD 38:02.986 There's a lot to be said as being famous for one thing and being able to make a living out of that and draw people to it. For us as a creative agency we've found limiting to one thing really difficult. But--

SEAN MARSH 38:15.386 Yes. I believe-- Yeah, it is hard.

SCOTT OXFORD 38:17.458 It is very, very hard. But I love the story that you told then, is that it is actually really possible to sort of stand by those values and to be really vocal about it. And you will attract the moths that you want to attract in that sort of situation.

SEAN MARSH 38:34.188 Or the butterflies hopefully.

SCOTT OXFORD 38:35.679 Yeah, the pretty ones. Definitely.

SEAN MARSH 38:38.307 Back on what you were saying before about taking a stand on certain things. I think it's an incredibly brave thing to do, because you do divide people. But you probably agree with this, that anything that's half decent does attract both equal negative and positive. And I think if you have customers saying to you, "How dare you change your name? This is political correctness gone mad." If they're really hung up on a name, are they really your customers?

SCOTT OXFORD 39:08.207 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if that detail-- and look, even the extreme version of that is if they're going to create a stink over something like that, are they really a good fit for you? Do you really want to be working with them?

SEAN MARSH 39:20.754 Exactly. Exactly. I guarantee that half the people who were blowing up at Thug Kitchen probably didn't buy the book. Honestly.

SCOTT OXFORD 39:28.657 Yeah. There are people that just love to get upset about something for the sake of it. And that's the difference between those that stand for something and those that stand against. And one of the most divisive brands I've known over the last couple of years has got to be Greta. There is no middle ground on Greta you either love her or you hate her, and you have some pretty strong reasons for doing that in terms of what I've heard and where people sort of stand on that. And again, I don't want to open that can of worms, necessarily, but yeah, there is a different criteria for each. And again, I think about finding a good fit with brands is about that we share a criteria. We care about the same things.

SEAN MARSH 40:21.335 Totally. And I think it lends itself. If you're in a credit agency, for example, that they automatically think that you get them in some way. And so the dialogue that you have once you start kicking off a project, that whole, "You don't get us," kind of thing is less of a roadblock. I do a bit of credit work at the moment and working with companies. I haven't really worked with sunscreen and horse fencing and real sort of stuff I haven't worked on.

SCOTT OXFORD 40:49.218 Different stuff.

SEAN MARSH 40:50.115 Different stuff, and I really have to find that I have to work on my sort of social game to sort of gain some trust that I haven't had to do before, when it's someone's like, "Hey, [inaudible], you've done this work before. We loved it. We get what you do. Let's just do business." It's interesting, the transaction is minimal.

SCOTT OXFORD 41:14.448 Yeah. That's the principal behind referral as well. I've got this sort of theory that a referral kind of gets you pass that 70% of that whole convincing. It's not so much-- there's still some work to do to sort of see if you're going to work together. But you come pre-qualified, somewhat, and that's what you're sort of talking about. And I think that's where we go back to-- it's what I was saying about, "Who gives a crap?" I've not seen their environmental credential, specifically, but I know what they stand for. And I know what their product is and I know who their market is. And they've almost, by referral, I think I'm making some pretty safe assumptions about their sustainability as well. And that's what you're talking about is a referral is skipping over that whole kind of, "We've got to kind of build some connection here or credibility." So to brands is that if you get that stuff right, it's just a case of then starting to do business together. It certainly shortens that whole, "I've got to try and convince you that I'm right for you, that my product's right for you, that I'm good to work with," because I've already, just by being who I am and communicating that well as a brand, and by other people, loving what you do come along. Because we use, "Who gives a crap," in our office and it was introduced by a member of staff who had used it at home as well. And now, it's sort of every time I go to the bathroom and see the box there with all the wrapping, the piles of toilet paper there wrapped up, it's just that nice kind of, "Yeah, this is right. This fits us. This is good fit."

SEAN MARSH 43:09.780 I think they've got a genius behind the scenes who's mapped out every touch point in the customer journey and said, "Where can we create a moment of delight at every possible turn?" I think the last place that they can probably do something's on the actual role itself. When you finish the [inaudible], it's like, "Good job, you," or, "Keep it up on a [inaudible]," something crazy, something weird. Like on the delivery box for the delivery guy, when you sit at the-- everyone, like you said in the office, they see it, "Oh, yeah, cool." And then you open it up and it might be a different wrapper on this thing. It's the ultimate embodiment of branding. Putting something over something else and it just elevates it to a whole new level, and they're just great at it. Yeah. I just love them.

SCOTT OXFORD 43:57.635 Funniest story of all, in Toowoomba, up in mountains a couple hours west of Brisbane, somebody had a glitch on their ordering and accidentally ordered an entire, basically, garage-full of [inaudible]. Spent about 3 grand or something.

SEAN MARSH 44:18.377 Oh, no.

SCOTT OXFORD 44:18.857 Accidentally purchased and it all got delivered. And I remember thinking at the time, "What a sort of beautiful example." Because it was early COVID, I'm pretty sure, and I think it was actually a local church pastor's. So I'm pretty sure rather than selling it off, I'm pretty sure they basically delivered it to people in need and so this beautiful example of that pay it forward, so.

SEAN MARSH 44:46.526 And they would've looked like they've bought into the TP pandemic, hey?

SCOTT OXFORD 44:50.495 Absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, I want to just jump back to some of the questions I love to ask is well around you, personally, just every guest has something great to share on-- a brand from their childhood. Because for any of us who are brand aware or brand-savvy, you kind of became aware of it at some point or you connected with a brand. And you look back and it still means something to you. For you, as a child or a teenager, what's a brand that you remember and connected with and why was that?

SEAN MARSH 45:25.076 Well, I mean, super early on, it was Nintendo, Ninja Turtles, He-Man. He-Man was big for me. I just thought it was so good. But I think in my teens and in 20s, I was surrounded by computers because my dad was a teacher and he was teaching computer science and a bunch of other stuff. So we had all the latest Apple products, which was bizarre because nobody else had access to this stuff. And so he would bring home-- you remember those old, white, rectangular box MACs? We had one of those. Then the round iMAC, the bubble with all the colours. That's when it really took off for me because I looked at PCs and I was like, "There is no character. There is no fun and there is no joy. It's purely functional." And Apple, for me, was just-- and I think my love of technology blossomed from that point because it was a great way to pull me in through the window dressing of what it was. And I don't think I've-- I've been a user ever since. I use both, but I mean, Apple, at the moment, a bit questionable now, but back then were doing some amazing things. It was joyful, I think.

SCOTT OXFORD 46:37.770 Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And it was around an aesthetic that wasn't essential to its functionality, but it was just a lovely little value-add. Why do these things have to be ugly? Why do they have to be-- why does this interface need to be graphically frustrating? I mean, for years, I saw mums and dads with very little technology awareness battling with their PCs, just to try and take some photos and put them in a folder because the icons were so tiny at the bottom of the screen. It's like nothing about it said, "We want to make this easy for you," whereas Apple was just clean and pristine and fresh and new and promised new things and new possibilities. And I'm exactly like you. I mean, I went to high school in the mid-80s, and I remember a friend of mine from high school having a very original I think it was a IIe, I think which even might have preceded the first Mac, and then, that first Mac, the vertical, the one that was taller than it was wider, nothing's been that ever since. And yeah, just the sheer magic, the sense of the future being in the now. But yeah, isn't that interesting too. You ended up in an industry that predominantly uses Apple as well. So they get us. They get our people.

SEAN MARSH 48:02.391 Yeah. Yeah. It's also funny because any time I'm working in-house anywhere, they automatically just give me a MacBook. Everyone else is rocking PCs, but they're just like, "I don't know, you're the creative type. You just use MacBooks, right?" I'm like, "I'll take it. I'll take it."

SCOTT OXFORD 48:18.321 "You creative types." Well, they are still lovely, but yes, as a brand, right now, as you said, what's going on there? There's sort of--

SEAN MARSH 48:31.289 I wonder if they've plateaued in terms of their innovation because now, everything is just thinner and thinner every year, faster and faster every year without any [inaudible] jobs, it hasn't been remarkable. Every time there's an event, it's like, "The best thing this year." It's like, well, you say that every year. I'm not pleasantly surprised anymore. I personally find it unremarkable, and it doesn't really wow me like it used to. I know that I see thing with a different lens now as an adult, but as a kid, it was just like there was nothing like it at all, except maybe your handheld Game Boys and stuff. That was crazy. That was so cool. Yeah. Anyway, I think they've lost their edge, maybe. I could be wrong.

SCOTT OXFORD 49:20.095 And we won't even get started on their ethical side of what they do. I mean, China, which is where they manufacture everything. China is a country that's run by its own rules and its own human rights charter and its own all like their [inaudible]. So it must be incredibly difficult to manage, as an ethical business, if you're sourcing things from places like China. It must be incredibly difficult to absolutely document-- is anybody in the ethical space holding countries like that to account do you know?

SEAN MARSH 50:00.719 Yes, but it is extremely difficult to do so because if the platform you run your business on is Apple, for example, and they are known for locking people into factories to get stuff done, but there is no other alternative. I don't know. So let's say Adobe, for example, they were doing some dodgy stuff. And would you switch your entire business over to Affinity Designer or something and then have to learn that from scratch again? It's hard. So we're railroaded into limited options in a lot of industries. There are heaps of options, say, in fashion now and food and transport and stuff if you can afford an electric car, for example. That's starting to change now, but there are certain things there's one or two options, industry standard. It's hard. It's really hard.

SCOTT OXFORD 50:49.507 It's hard to think-- yeah, that there could be an equivalent of Who Gives a Crap in the computer space. That's some--

SEAN MARSH 50:56.625 That'll be breath of fresh air, I reckon.

SCOTT OXFORD 50:59.366 I think we're right for it. We're certainly right for that, but yeah, it's a big challenge. We've talked a lot about trust today and the ability to sort of trust an organisational level of transparency. Is there a brand, in your experience, that you used to trust but that no longer, they've broke trust with you?

SEAN MARSH 51:22.554 Oh, that's a good question. The first thing that springs to mind is Comm Bank. When I was a kid, and I don't know if you had the same experience, but everyone was given a Dollarmites account. And so it's financial indoctrination from an early age. They did so through fun cartoons and this sort of stuff, and I was a customer with them for years as a result, which is their-- it's their business model.

SCOTT OXFORD 51:46.301 The long games.

SEAN MARSH 51:46.825 It was a very, very, very smart move. But then, once I became aware of where money's going, it did make me go,"Aww, I just like the app so much. It's so useful." So that's one example that springs to mind. I mean, there's a few others, but off the top of my head-- I guess I get disappointed by brands all the time. [laughter] It's hard to keep track. The digger you deep, the murkier the water gets, I suppose.

SCOTT OXFORD 52:16.496 Yeah. Look, that's exactly it. And it's all about measuring it back against about what we sort of, care about, and whether we've got time. Because life is busy and full-on and crazy. And this year, more than ever. We've got a lot of factors. I think COVID has meant-- for example, facemasks. Facemasks, surely are an environmental disaster waiting to happen, but--

SEAN MARSH 52:42.591 They're all over the footpath, kind of where I live. Which is such a shame.

SCOTT OXFORD 52:45.797 Yeah. So what we've got there, is that we've got a certain need. I mean, we also-- COVID-- we also destroyed our economy with it, as well. So there's been a number of really big steps-- set backs that have been happened, because we've-- the game changed and we prioritised something over that. And surely all of the hand sanitiser that's been produced now, cannot be environmentally friendly, but these are the challenges of life. And surely, if you worked to be an idealist, and say that I'm not going to deal with anyone, you pretty much need to go and live in the bush, by yourself, and be fully self- sustaining. So its actually about being able to keep the faith. And what I enjoyed about your podcast, so far, is that it's about everybody recognising that we can all, sort of, do something. And I think-- I mean, that's been around for a while. We can all make a change. It's not just the-- you can't save all the starfish on the beach, but you can save the one that you throw back. That's a thing with ethical branding as well. It's basically about just setting out to work with more and more companies, that you know that you can trust. And inspiring more companies to take that leap.

SEAN MARSH 54:04.993 Yeah. I'm very much committed to simple solutions to these big problems. I like the idea of being able to synthesise complex challenges, and just saying, "Here's a three-step plan." To just doing something about it. And I think brands could learn a lot from that. That if you stand for something, market it. And say, "Here's how we're doing this thing. Here's how you can get involved in that thing." Yeah. I mean, it all comes back to why I think I'd like to create something that is a one-stop-shop for climate-change solutions, that are, "Here's money, here's what you do with it." And feel great about it. "Here's what's happening with food." Because there's a lot of-- there's so much information out there, and obviously people get freaked out by it, but there's not a lot of people saying, "Yeah, we get it." But do this thing, and you'll feel better.

SCOTT OXFORD 55:01.826 Yeah. I really love the power that that movement for ethical fashion has achieved. They have tangibly shifted the dial, in the way large fashion business in Australia, large retailers hold themselves accountable, in terms of the changes that they've made. In terms of ensuring that human-rights violations are not a part of getting latest fashion tee to me, as well and that's-- do you agree that we've seen some big change in that space?

SEAN MARSH 55:42.813 Yeah. You can't type ethical brands into Google and not get the first pages full of sustainable fashion brands. It's almost like you type in ethical in anything, say, Instagram or TikTok, it's all about fashion. And so they are clearly, they play a large role with cotton, work rights, all that sort of stuff. And people are starting to figure that out because in Western societies, we go through a lot of clothes. And you can go to one of the bigger places and buy a $5 t-shirt and then it kind of makes you think, "How is this costing me $5," because you know through the handling of things, it's 50% of this going and 25% to them. And then who made that shirt? What are they getting? There's got to be something wrong with that.

SCOTT OXFORD 56:31.812 Well, I think that was the big wake-up call. For a lot of us, it was like, "Hang on, that is not good enough. It is not good enough that this comes to me and that people are dying or people are starving because they're not earning enough or they're not seeing their families." It's just not good enough.

SEAN MARSH 56:49.535 Yeah. It's interesting because I mean, there's one school of thought to say that some of these developing countries wouldn't have employment if it wasn't for the fashion industry. But then you look a bit harder and it's like, well, they're not really doing that well anyway because of the fashion industry. It's like, "Here's a little carrot, but it's only a tiny bit of it." You know what I mean?

SCOTT OXFORD 57:11.740 Yeah.

SEAN MARSH 57:11.740 And they're struggling. Especially now, COVID has certainly decimated that industry. People just aren't going to retail stores. I think there's a lot of online shopping going on, but there are a lot of countries that have locked down their borders, New Zealand, for example. And so there's a lot of stuff that's just not getting in and out of certain places. And I do really actually quite worry about the people in the developing nations who completely rely on, say, H&M or something, whoever it might be that they're making the clothes for, and then it's just all dried up. So there's some videos online that show that some of them all gone back from the bigger cities, bigger towns back to their family homes just to work on farms and stuff because there is nothing else for them to do in terms of work. It's crazy. This whole thing has been an amazing eye-opener in terms of resilience as a human race that when something stops, the whole machine just falls to pieces. And this is a wake-up call that we have to do it better.

SCOTT OXFORD 58:13.861 Yeah. We've been seeing the same in particular, third-world countries that rely on tourists in terms of spending. The natural order of things, from just begging in the streets from wealthy Americans who are not there anymore.

SEAN MARSH 58:29.733 Yeah. Did you see the Japanese fellow who was stuck in South America and he was the only one that was allowed to go to Machu Picchu. And there's a photo of him and he's the only one there. And because he was there for nine months, he was stuck there. And this amazing photo of him and it's unbelievable. You never get a photo of Machu Picchu and you're the only on there. Bizarre.

SCOTT OXFORD 58:54.130 You have to Photoshop everyone else out of it if you wanted that.

SEAN MARSH 58:56.636 Yeah. Totally.

SCOTT OXFORD 58:57.943 It's interesting. Yeah. I like-- well, I don't like. I struggle with the fact that for every positive decision you make, there are a whole lot of other strings attached too. It is a really big challenge to know what you're actually achieving there, but yeah.

SEAN MARSH 59:19.825 It is a Pandora's box once you start opening it. And it ends up-- you're in discussions with certain people, "Oh, I did this thing." And then typically, what happens is, "Oh, yeah, cool. Have you thought about doing this as well?" And you're like, "Another thing to add to the list?" It gets overwhelming but I think it all comes down to making thoughtful choices. Like you say, as an agency or even a business and saying, "This is where we do things. This is where we don't do things." And as a person, I think we should also have that strategic intent and some guiding principles to say, "I've done this. I'm happy with that. And then maybe I will move on to something else [inaudible] down the track."

SCOTT OXFORD 59:55.552 Yeah. Yeah. So every company-- as I said before, it's really complex running a brand, running a company, keeping all of the conversations right, putting your foot right. No matter how hard you try to get it right, it's always possible that you can put your foot in it, isn't it? Put a step wrong and then suddenly, thanks to the transparency of social and the loud voices out there, suddenly get crucified. Does a business deserve that when they put their foot wrong?

SEAN MARSH 01:27.431 I don't if they-- well, I mean, if they've done so and it has been intentional, definitely. But if it's unintentionally, they still get dragged over hot coals because we've talked about that people will emotionally buy into something. And so there are fairly common that there's consumers out there that do scrutinise a lot all the time, just check in with the thing that they are backing. A good example is Oatly, who's a Swedish oat milk producer. They've exploded. They're all over the world now. I absolutely love the way they brand themselves, their marketing messaging, it's all very funny, tongue-in-cheek, blunt as well. They got this great tag line, which has ruffled a few feathers, which is, "It's milk, but for humans."

SCOTT OXFORD 01:01:22.251 [laughter] That's brilliant. I love that.

SEAN MARSH 01:01:24.411 Yeah. It's great. And they've painted murals over the side of buildings, which is, essentially, instead of paying someone to do a social post, we did this mural instead. And that's literally all it is, a bottle of the milk on the corner. And you see the hand-written lettering and you know it's them. So they get a lot of exposure, and they're very, very good at what they do. And obviously, oat milk is one of the least carbon-intensive of the milk alternatives out there. It's my beverage of choice. But recently, they were found out to have taken a big investment from a company-- I believe it's called Blackstone. And being the conscientious little minions that they are, their customers sort of figured out the red tape. And Blackstone have invested in things that have caused Amazon destruction, which is the antithesis of what someone who's buying oat milk wants to be involved in. And so it was nonsense. I actually believe that they would've expanded their social team to deal with all of these comments because there was not a comment online that they didn't respond to. And it became clear to me because I sort of tread the line between investment and ethics and taking a slice of the pie away from the bad guys to the good guys and all that sort of stuff. Oatly's response was essentially that the amount of money or capital that is purely above board, ethical, green, whatever, is barely anything compared to the rest. And so their argument was, "We've taken investment away from something to make it better." But people generally don't seem to understand how we can use this system to change the system. I think if you're on one side of the fence, it's like you truly believe you must distance yourself from everything possible, but it's impossible to do that in Western society.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:03:31.481 Unrealistic and yeah, that's exactly I think there is always more to the story, and I think this is where comms is so vital for a brand to be able to communicate it. Unfortunately, those guys, it sounds like someone just didn't do their due diligence or do you think it was a deliberate-- I mean, you can't think that they would've deliberately set out to support something or did they?

SEAN MARSH 01:03:56.002 It's hard to say. They have put up a few statements and there's even a video, I believe, and I've read a couple of responses. They did so, I think intentionally, because they needed investment to do what they need to do, but there was no investment available for them that was completely clean of any wrongdoing. Like I said before, with the super funds, for example, I can think of five or six, maybe, that are doing the right thing compared to 500 that maybe aren't. And the same is with global investment, where the money goes where the money is made. And so I think they might've acted a deliberated choice to say, "We're going to take money from this to clean it up, I guess." But I'm not too sure that-- I think two things, probably they didn't communicate it maybe effectively and probably that a fair chunk of their consumers aren't of that mindset that you can use the system to change the system. They just want to completely distance themselves from it and they probably believe they had by buying into the brand [inaudible].

SCOTT OXFORD 01:05:06.197 Yeah. Yeah. It's tough and it's tough. And the bigger you are, the tougher it is.

SEAN MARSH 01:05:13.963 The higher you fall.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:05:15.544 Absolutely. But I always often, it's actually the way we respond to these falls, that is the mark of us and how we respond. So it sounds like they're doing a pretty good job of it and probably under discussion in new places that they previously weren't. And at the end of the day, it's a business. A business needs to grow. A brand is really about the conversations that are being had about it. So at least they're being talked about. They're being wrestled with. They're being understood. And they are doing the bit if what we talked about is true. They're doing their bit to educate the ethical consumer that there's more at play than just what you see that's just what social media tells us. And I think anytime anything that helps get over what used to be the gossip magazine kind of syndrome, this idea of, "It's printed, therefore, it must be true." Anything that educates people and helps them become more discerning, more able to make positive decisions and see that sometimes things are complex, but that doesn't mean that they're bad and that there is a path to be found through it, so. We are running out of time, Sean, and I do just want to ask you about the TikTok dancing environmentalist because TikTok is a complete conundrum to me. My 12-year old daughter is a mad TikToker. I've seen some grown men who spend their days performing on TikTok, but tell us about the dancing environmentalists.

SEAN MARSH 01:06:51.123 So it's funny, initially, everybody as soon as they found out about TikTok, they were just like, "What is this stupid dancing thing? Surely, there's something better they can do." Everyone hated it except for the people who were doing it, the young kids, the teenagers, and stuff like that. They'll have a great time. What's too bad about them having a dance? There's these filters that you can have, right? So as you dance, it shows you what the moves you make and then you can add little worded tags that pop up. You can point to them and stuff. And there's this interesting movement of all of these young ppl who are doing dances to sort of break through and get people to watch, but they're educating people about, say, Amazon destruction and also where party politics are being lobbied against by. It's amazing. These kids are like 15, 16, and they're talking about these massive adult concepts through the medium of dance. And all their followers are like, "I didn't know about this. Wow, how cool is that? I can't wait to vote so I can do something about it." Bizarre, but it's amazing.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:07:56.966 That is an incredible appropriation of the medium, isn't it? But it's also, they have just been-- they are who they are, and they've been given a platform, and they're going to use it. And it would be fair to say that maybe we haven't seen it before because there hasn't been the right platform, has there? So big answer there is that brands need their platform. And in this particular case, it may not be so much brands, but it's more these big, political, environmental concepts, which are brands. They're conversations [crosstalk]--

SEAN MARSH 01:08:37.165 Oh, yeah, if you think about it, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You're buying into an idea or a person. You're believing what they're telling you and yeah, you're right. I think brand, as a concept is everywhere, really. Yeah.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:08:54.451 Absolutely. There's never enough time to talk about these things.

SEAN MARSH 01:08:58.299 We could talk for hours, I reckon.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:08:59.899 Yeah. Most of my guests, we've basically said, "We're barely started." So maybe series two, we'll have to do a reprise. But the last question I always ask is, what's a dream brand that you've never worked on or for, but would love to? Who would you like to work for?

SEAN MARSH 01:09:16.832 Okay. I think I probably-- it's hard. There's so many really good ones. I think probably Bank Australia are doing some great things. I feel like they could be braver in what they do, and I would love the opportunity to get in there and do some brave stuff with them. Patagonia, Minor Figures, even Who Gives a Crap, yeah, I think it's just-- you'd be absolutely proud to be a part of one of those teams, so.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:09:46.083 Yeah. Definitely. I like the fact that your first option was one that you could actually be the difference that they need. That's great. And Sean, I love what you're doing with your podcast and I've loved what you shared today and everything you stand for, it's really powerful and inspiring. And I know that those listening to this podcast are going to leave with lots of great questions for themselves, and we've hopefully contributed to another doing our part in this to see positive change happen.

SEAN MARSH 01:10:18.733 I've no doubt. And if any of your listeners want to reach out to me, I'm @seanmarshdesign on most platforms, so you should be able to find me.

SCOTT OXFORD 01:10:28.011 Yeah. We'll throw something in the episode [nights?] as well so you can connect up and find his podcast and also some of those things that we've talked about today. But yeah, it's been a blast, mate. Thank you so much. I can't wait to do it again one day.

SEAN MARSH 01:10:40.087 Thanks, Scotty. Yeah. This was excellent. Thank you so much. [music]

SCOTT OXFORD 01:10:44.052 So if you loved today's podcast, please subscribe. Subscribers make me very, very happy. If there's someone like Sean that you think we should be talking to, please refer them to me. And if there's a big question that you want asked, one of these days I'll get around to doing a podcast where I just answer all the questions. But signing off. We will talk today again about the fact that brand is the conversations that are being had mainly by customers. And if you don't like what's being said, don't [inaudible]. Change the conversation. It's been great. Take care. Talk soon.