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Scott Oxford 0:02
Everyone I'm Scott Oxford and welcome to BrandJam, the podcast where we jam about brand because brand is our jam.

Today I'm jamming with Michael Goodhew. Michael is a copyright attorney, marketing manager and strategist and he has a passion for bringing behavioural science principles and disciplines into the marketing space. After 20 years in FMCG, marketing, working with brands including oak flavoured milk, viola yoghurt, ice break, and nature's own vitamins. Michael recently made the switch to financial services with compare the market where he's the GM of brand. And yes, compare the market is the insurance comparison site that has those two loveable meerkats that have become well known across Australia, billboards, television, and you know it by heart. Welcome, Michael.

Michael Goodhew 0:56
Thanks very much, Scott. Thanks for inviting me. Great to be here.

Scott Oxford 0:59
So yeah, I have to say, we're gonna have to start with the Meerkat, and there, I'm sure that dominates audio conversation. So there are a brand element that appeals to, you know, every every age group, there's just something about them and they clearly a great device for building connection. And so, how is compare the market using meerkats and how are they being clever with that from a brand perspective?

Michael Goodhew 1:27
Yeah, I mean, as a brand owner, as a brand custodian, some massive massive bonus to have those those characters that are so well loved and people, you know, instantly recognise the brand, which is not the whole job done, but it's, you know, it's a it's a long way they're the the meerkats is a fluent devices, as many people would refer to them in the branding world is such an enormous asset for the brand and it gives you immediate, awareness gives you cut through gives you like ability. So whatever else we do with the brand You know, we have the meerkats is the main soul if you like, and then we we can follow that up with all the other messages that we need to communicate. But, you know, absolutely the meerkats are a huge brand asset and definitely not undervalued compared to market they're not going anywhere anytime soon there's still a lot of legs left in the Meerkat, Alex and Sergei are their names by the way there is an extended family as well oh legs getting more of a feature in recent times but there's there's many more in the Meerkat family to introduce into the future but yeah, just such great cut through and to have you know, the the little catchphrase symbols in the vernacular is enormous for any brand and bear in mind it's only been in Australia for seven years, this brand to have accumulated that amount of love and awareness and and brand salience in that time is quite phenomenal.

Scott Oxford 2:56
You know, I what I love about the My guess is obviously the execution It's it's, it's the realisation, the real dimensionality, all the subliminal aspects of them because they're, they're just incredibly likeable. But the concept when you say we can have a couple of meerkats, as characters doesn't instantly say, warmth and connection, but they've really kind of built this sort of place in our heart where we actually want to know what they're going to do next. And we want to know where they go. So they're kind of the kind of living a bit of life for us. And I think, you know, that that's it. I also think it's really great, too, that, you know, to get to the hearts of families. I mean, we've seen fast food brands do that in what some people think, is a bit of an immoral way to get to a family through the children. But in this particular case, these guys, you know, they're so incredibly lovable, and it makes sense to, to connect, you know, with the whole family, and

Michael Goodhew 3:47
so you don't get a lot of pester power with insurance, you know, so compare the market as a service that compares household costs. So insurance, energy, the cost of your mortgage and credit cards. So kids whilst they love the meerkats, they're not exactly running to mum and dad and saying, Hey, we, we have to compare our energy costs on compare the market. But, you know, it's certainly it pervades the family consciousness, that's for sure. And you know, like lots of other successful fluid devices, you think about the m&ms characters and in you know, that you can list off, you know, through the, the sort of decades of advertising history around you know, Ronald McDonald and, and many other characters that have worked their way into people's hearts and homes and, and conversations. You know, the meerkats are right up there. And as I say, after only seven years, and yes, they've had significant investment in this country behind them, but um, but you know, I take my hat off to whoever it was who decided that compare the market and compare the Meerkat was going to work as a concept and who would whoever was the CMO who signed that off when the agency came up with the idea is a is a genius because, as I say, it's been a massive, massive bonus of free kicking many respects to helping, I guess, I guess people get them understanding what it is that we do. You know, the brand name really describes what we do, which is, which is fantastic. And then to have the meerkats as the sort of, you know, the conduit through which you deliver that brand name. Yeah, it's, it's a great, great sort of tool to have in the toolkit.

Scott Oxford 5:27
Yeah, absolutely. And if you're seven years old, and there's lots of exciting things yet to happen, which of course, you can't even talk about right now. All the all the secret sauce, but yeah, I think I think we're kind of waiting to see what those guys do next. Yeah. So that that's the power of it.

Michael Goodhew 5:43
If you if you really want to get a sense of how deeply ingrained Meerkat law has become, just hop onto our Facebook page and look at some of the comments any, any post that contains Alex or Sergei. There's a lot of love for those little guys. And it really, you know, there's a lot of people who are team Sergei really stick out for him and other people say, go for it, Alex.

Scott Oxford 6:04
Maybe, maybe, you know Amazon's gonna come along and commission a whole series for the brand. Yeah, we've spoken about there is some deep Meerkat law that here the makeup lovers can get into. Yeah, I was just talking to someone the other day about the you know, the Pirates of Caribbean series came from a theme park ride, you know, like it's a, you know, a fascinating, fascinating way for for something to just resonate, whether it was in a way it was never intended to and suddenly become, you know, much, much bigger than it ever began. But right back to that idea, you know, just that play on words. Compare the Meerkat compare the market as well, that that just that little daring idea that could have so easily been dismissed is is you know, that creative spark that can then go on and have this incredible life and I'm reading a great book at medical unsafe thinking and the author's name just doesn't, doesn't come to me at the moment, but I'll pop it in the Notes for this episode. But, you know, it talks all about that. The essence of amazing ideas comes from those little things that could just as easily have been dropped out the side, but instead of have become the centre of it, and then the rest is history. So

Michael Goodhew 7:11
that's the beautiful thing about what we do, you know, so much of it is, is rooted in really good thinking and science, but then a lot of it is luck, you know, like life, I suppose. But, you know, a lot of what we do is just somebody having the courage to back an idea, you know, On a hunch, and and look, I don't know if that's the history or whether it's, it was more robust than that, but certainly it was compared to the market can be the Meerkat. It's gone that way. Yeah.

Scott Oxford 7:36
And it's a damn good dad joke, and we love those. So that's, that's what you do currently, but you have pretty solid history in fmcg. And I would say for me as a creative, that's the probably one of the areas I just haven't had a lot to do with. So I guess we're all about how brands build trust and fmcg is all about products that we take home. We put in our, you know, we, we put in our family's mouths or we, you know, we wash our clothes and we put it close to our skin, all these sort of things. So what's what's the secret in fmcg? about building building trust with a brand?

Michael Goodhew 8:15
I think you're definitely right that it is, you know, for the appeal for a marketer is that you can be in so many houses and I know when I went from working in vitamins to working in dairy products, that was definitely part of the appeal for me to make that move was, you know, I want to be the brand that is in every refrigerator or on every shelf. So, you know, I think for though, for brands that occupy that space in people's lives, trust is really built primarily through the product, you know, so and there's, there's very few examples I can think of in my career where there hasn't been a really solid product offer behind the brand and, you know, the in these days of Instagram and Tiktok, you know, you can build a following if you like. And if you want to lump a brand into a following, fine, but, but I think those things are fleeting, you know that they don't have a don't have a longevity, I think for a brand to really, you know, warranted to place on in households ongoing for a long period of time it needs to be at its at its core usefulness that value exchange there, you know, that it's, it's something that's delivering on what it says it's going to deliver, not unlike people, you know, like, if you're the sort of person who's all front end, don't deliver, then at the end of the day, that'll get found out and you know, that lack of authenticity is the thing that erodes trust.

Scott Oxford 9:37
Yeah, let's that's really and the marketers job is to make a brand promise that the product can deliver on exactly. So yeah, it's pretty evident fairly quickly. If it doesn't, doesn't deliver on that, once it gets makes its way into your kitchen or into your bathroom. Yeah, yep, exactly, right. Mm hmm. Cool. All right. I want to take you in a different direction. Now. We'll come back to some of that later. And just Examining some other aspects of brand through your experiences, but I want to take you back to childhood now and and ask you if use a brand in brands in particular from early life that really connected with you, and why you think that is why they found a place in your heart.

Michael Goodhew 10:19
Yeah, I think I think I was meant for this gig because I could list for the next three hours or the brands that sort of meant something to me. And you know, you show me the millimetre of the edge of a logo, and I'll tell you what brand is associated with it, that there's a board game logo that it's just yeah, you know,

I'm just gonna retire from that one. So it is in my DNA. But, you know, I think for me brands, you know, a brand that really resonated for me. When I was younger, for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I got into professional cycling and I think it was Wide World of Sports. On a Saturday afternoon, they'd showcase a whole bunch of different sports that you'd never heard of before, and I don't know anything about To the phones but that was something that was featured that on on Wide World of Sports and so for whatever reason I fell in love with that and there was a brand associated with that called look cycling brand. And it was a really simple logo was you know, just a black the words the word look black with a few colours, coloured boxes across the top and I absolutely adored it and I didn't have the money to finance this, this passion for cycling gear but my thing was my my big sister bought me a T shirt. I wore that T shirt absolutely everywhere, or it out. I loved it so much. I didn't do a lot of cycling. I didn't have a bike and I wrote a bit but not more than the average teenager. So I was probably about 12 early teens at that stage. But I think it's those brands that resonate or that represent a subculture, I think are the ones that really stick with me. So so that was representing the subculture of cycling and I really got into that. Probably today a similar brand for me would be Fred Perry which records See our style of music that I like and I guess a an ethos and values around equality and, and racial unity and these sorts of things. Yeah represents a certain subculture and that's what I really buy into. Equally. I can really dislike brands that represent a subculture I do not like so. Yeah, names. No, no. But um, you know, I think that Yeah, those those those brands that I guess yeah, represent some values. And that's something that I'm, you know, personally interested in are passionate about, I think they're the ones that really stick with me. You know, and it for me, it tends not to be sort of your massive mainstream consumer brands, as a, as a marketing professional. Obviously, I take my hat off to those brands and what they're able to do but on a personal level, I tend to sort of shy away from the the obvious ones and go for, for stuff that's sort of more more resonates with me.

Scott Oxford 12:59
Is that because they're more new And by being more niche, they're naturally got more potential touch points rather than pleasing the masses, do you think?

Michael Goodhew 13:07
And it's not so nice, it's not some kind of snobbish kind of dislike. I you know, it's not because they're nice it's just as if they happen to represent something that

Scott Oxford 13:17
I'm thinking more because if it isn't a shift sort of, there's a greater chance for you to either by fully in or fully out whereas a bigger brand that has to they have to be a bit more generalised. They have to appeal to more people by their their sheer volume. Yes. Whereas look was you know, was really connecting in and if you continued cycling, I'm guessing that you didn't continue but if we did, that's the long game for that brand, because there's a really good chance that's the product she'd be buying today.

Michael Goodhew 13:43
Yeah, and actually, in preparation for this I thought I must look up and see what happened to look and they're still going they've Yeah, they've they're still producing cycling gear and it looks like they've got some really snazzy stuff so I'll have to jump back in to look but but yeah, and look like like a lot of middle aged men on rocking this the locker again. So maybe it's time to step back in.

Scott Oxford 14:05
Yeah, well, I'm yet to discover it, but I'm kind of saving up for my 50 so I'm probably it's probably gonna happen so yeah, so that is Yeah, that's I just always fascinates me what it is that makes things you know, take a little space in your heart and stay there all these years later and you still sort of remember it and yeah, what's interesting too, is that look, probably didn't benefit hugely financially at the at the time, but again, you're in your second wind now. So there's a really good chance they'll cash it in years later. Yep.

Michael Goodhew 14:39
Yeah, look apart from that, you know, as a kid, I loved all the stuff that kids love, especially the ones that are filled with sugar. So you know, to this day, I think I have some kind of, you know, connection with the colours of the Mars bar wrapper, but you know, I see that the red and the golden the black and instantly I you know, want to have a Mars bar You know the milk I would bring around the flavoured milk so we'd have you know at the time I think delivering Jacaranda milk which is a little known brand now i don't i don't know if you can get it outside of switcher or at all but you know that kind of resonates and sticks in my head and you know yet others like breaker as a local local milk brand as well and yeah all those all those yummy treats that you could get as a kid they're the ones that kind of release stick with me as well.

Scott Oxford 15:25
It's really interesting you bring up dairy brands because dairies how you spend a good chunk of urea as well. Do you think there was a special affinity there that made you really kind of you know, because I mean that's the question how do you how do you define yourself in dairy or is it something that you know those early connections kind of meant something to you and they do

Michael Goodhew 15:43
maybe maybe something subliminal, I used to have a T shirt that said make mind milk with a picture of a rat. I don't know why a rat but a rat drinking from a massive glass of milk so maybe all these things later. Yeah, yeah.

Little nudges you know, they talked about nominated determinism. You know, which is the the idea that, you know, sort of Mr. Bookman becomes a librarian that you know, the speaking of dad jokes cliffhanger is the rock climber. So there's a sense that, you know, if you're named something in the direction of a professional, you're more likely to sort of nudge yourself towards that. So maybe the makers of the make my milk t shirts. Yeah, that the any idea of the impact that have But no, for me moving from vitamins into dairy was all around health. So I was working on lots of probiotic products for the vitamin company, and I was doing a lot of research into that. As part of, you know, being a good brand, custodian and Product Manager. And the valley a brand. It was what I went to work on. Yeah, because they've got those probiotics that are really good for you for your gut. So that was what drew me across not so much the milk. Yeah. But maybe, maybe so maybe,

Scott Oxford 16:57
you know, if someone asked me the question about brands from child Moz bar would absolutely be on it's anytime I think of asking this question I go back to we lived, you know, in my early Primary School down from a corner store and there was a billboard. And I, you know, it would have been cheaper than this. But I remember the phrase still only 40 cents where they used to probably much lighter than that market. I think it was much cheaper than that back then. It was probably a five or 10 cent, you know, in the 70s. But, but yeah, like the colours are perennial. There's something about it. Yeah. Something about that.

Michael Goodhew 17:29
Yeah. That just so deep into my, my memory structures.

Scott Oxford 17:33
Yeah, absolutely. Cool. All right. A couple of other brand questions. What do you think the biggest mistake you see businesses organisations make around brand?

Michael Goodhew 17:46
I think it's an internal issue that becomes an external one, but I think it's that the people who work closely with the brand, despite you know, potentially investing lots in market research, so Still don't have a customer centric view of their brands place in the world. And you see it play out in all sorts of different ways. But I think that's the greatest risk and the greatest opportunity for businesses. You know, the brand is the business in the world. But often people who work in businesses forget that and they, they almost when they come to work, they leave their consumer hat outside and they put on their business needs hat. And they start seeing the world through a very different lens, they see the world through this is what our business needs out of our brand. Therefore, this is how we're going to front up to people in the world. And they forget that as a consumer themselves, that's not how they interact with brands. You know, so there's this there's this great opportunity to really put that aside and and really lock in intellectually and also with humility to, to the idea that no, it's your brand is what As a customer the consumer says it is and not just what you'd wish it to be so I think this The sooner we can sort of get that in in boardrooms and and marketing departments as well because marketers aren't immune to this either. You know, it happens that we all we work day in day out on this brand we can't become so close to it we know intimately we know everything about it all it's all its warts all its good points and and, you know, we put this you know, I think when we sit at work in our in our meetings and in our heads and we think about the you know, the great sanitised version of our brand and we think that that's how the rest of the world sees it as well. And, and if only we could tell the rest of the world what we know about our brand, then they just come flocking to us. And that's not the way go is because you know if you know for the most part, consumers want brands to leave them alone. You know, they want to get on with their lives they want. They want that sense of utility out of it and they want that sense of an emotional connection but on their terms, not on the brand owners terms. So I think, you know, whether we're talking about CEOs or or CMOS or marketing department people. Yeah, it's it's having that, that intellectual buy into the fact that, you know, customer centricity is at the heart of what we do. And to remember that when they when they're working with their brains every day,

Scott Oxford 20:22
yeah, it's interesting. I've worked for organisations that will consultant organisations where the sales guys have a low thing for the marketing guys. Yeah, cuz, and the marketing guys feel like the sales guys just want to sort of take a very demanding, but the reality is that sales guys are probably most close to what customers actually want. And if you're in an organisation that doesn't have a sales department, how do you how do you find out what customers want?

Michael Goodhew 20:51
We can talk a lot about market research, and we probably will at some stage, so maybe I'll await for that. But you know, I look I think That the Yes. So the sales guy has been close to the market. And we'll have an insight, but I think it also depends on what the supply channel looks like. Supply Chain. Sorry. So, you know, if you're a salesperson who's talking to a retailer, for example, you may not necessarily have a good sense of what the consumer the end consumer wants. So I think we have to be careful about, you know, the, what's coming back to the customer.

I think it definitely there's a role for everyone. And I include, you know, CEOs and founders in this as well, because there's been many, many fantastic campaigns that have run, you know, across the marketing ages of, from founders who have, you know, they have the brand in their DNA and they started the business because they have a sense of what it can deliver for people. And, and so often those become really successful. And so, you know, that, that knowledge that that you know, He's part of a co founders toolkit shouldn't be dismissed. But sometimes it gets in the way as well. And that's, that's where sort of brand teams have to be really kind of resolute in in understanding what consumers want. So, so to that that point, you know, to talk about consumer research. You know, I think that more and more marketers are waking up to the fact that you can't put eight people in a room at 630 on a Wednesday night and give them some chips and expect to get a real view of what people think. You know, and this is not a new idea. I mean, David Ogilvy was talking about this in the 60s that people don't really say what they what they think and and, and so, you know, that the idea that you can get those insights from that sort of environment I think is is falling away and more and more people are realising that you know, you need to find other ways to find out what what people think. So you know, in depth interviews, for example, More sophisticated ways to run focus groups. Yes. So more people are now using in depth interviews, for example of using focus groups at the right point in the research process so that they're gathering a broad understanding of the issues that are important to consumers in a category rather than a yes, no decision on do you like this colour or this colour on the pack? Or, you know, is this ad working for you? Because, you know, we know that when people walk up to those groups, and they, because of the social situation that they're in, they're not presenting their true feelings. And in fact, they're never going to think as deeply about that brand as they do for that 90 minutes that you've locked him in a room on a Wednesday night. They're never going to think about that way. And they're not thinking about that when they're in the category to anywhere near that same extent. So yeah, I think it's about just making sure that you're you're really being smart about the way that you're gathering your insights. Mm hmm.

Scott Oxford 23:55
Yeah, absolutely. What do you think the biggest misconceptions are around brand you mentioned CEOs and CMOS and the like, what are they? What are they misunderstanding about brand?

Michael Goodhew 24:08
I think that brand can necessarily solve all the problems of a business. That, you know, getting back to that first point around trust authenticity and brands is that you know, the product or the service still has to be the thing that stands up. And, and so this sense that you can put a brand out there that, you know, we, you know, we create the brand purpose and we write the brand values and we, you know, create the brand key or pyramid, whatever, you know, tool you want to use. And then we we don't we know we kind of Polish all that up and we say this fantastic. This is how we want the brand to be seen in the world, but then we don't actually live that. I think that's the you know, probably one of the biggest misconceptions that if we just say it, then that's enough. And yeah, that's the thing that's really going to erode that trust,

Scott Oxford 24:53
kind of like vision, mission and values that are printed really nicely in a poster on the wall but never got inducted. No pays any attention to it? Yep. Yeah, the leaders don't necessarily live at that kind of thing. Yeah,

Michael Goodhew 25:05
yeah, no, that's right. And I look I gotta give a shout out to compare the market in that respect and that they really do live those values I mean what what that what compare the market does is it helps people compare and save money so that they can you know, especially now with you know, everyone sort of really looking at their hip pocket and going Geez, where are we? Where can we save some money we've lost an income we've got reduced income you know, a lot of people are hurting and something a service like compare the market is is really valuable at this time, where people can actually go and say, well, geez, I need to save some money on my health insurance and my energy costs or my car insurance. Yeah, so you know that so a company like compare the market does live those values, that the the service that they offer is intrinsically wound up in in what the brand, how the brain front soccer presents itself to market. Hmm.

Scott Oxford 25:58
Yeah, I think it's a great opportunity to To, for businesses to get someone to look in from outside as well and really just sort of assess that. I think it's gonna be, it's a hard thing to do from within and it's, it's hard to be the person within an organisation is tasked tell that organisation at any level that they're, they're not living the brand or they're not, you know, sort of they're not. But if but if they're not living it out, then it's then conversations are going to be had about them that are around the disconnect between what their promises and what the reality is. Yeah. And that's it. And I guess that brings us to authenticity as well. You know, a brand is not a person a brand is this thing. It's an organisation. So a group of people, it's a bunch of stories, it's the way people act, and they think and they do all of that. How does that organisation become authentic in terms of that? I guess you sort of answered that, but, but how do you how do you get to that point,

Michael Goodhew 26:52
I think you get, you get to it by drawing a really clear thread through from the brand all the way through the organise And I think it's pretty evident pretty quickly if the organisation isn't set up to deliver on the brand promise and those brand values and, you know, I think just the famous Jeff Bezos quote is the brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And, and, you know, that, that, you know, he's really evident pretty quickly, even inside an organisation, if those things are not aligned, if there's a misalignment there between the culture of the organisation and, and where that how the brain wants to shop for consumers, I think that becomes pretty, pretty clear pretty quickly. The you know, so I think the key is to be able to draw that, that thread all the way through the organisation, and, you know, keep people making a big difference, you know, keep people living the values in an organisation everyday make a huge impact into whether that translates out in the world. So, you know, I think as I say, you know, back to CEOs and founders, that's where they can really have an impact by by leaving the values of that brand. But at the same time, then the onus is on the brand team to be able to really well articulate that and also to influence through the business. So, wherever decisions are made, whether they be in finance or in HR or commercial anywhere else, that that, yeah, there is a consistency in the values of the brand and the values of the business. Mm hmm.

Scott Oxford 28:24
Absolutely. So we talked before about the fact that brand is internal and external and internally, if you're not living it, if you're not getting it, if it's not sort of led from the top that that sort of makes it really difficult for people to to represent the the brand externally. But what does it mean? What does it mean for them, you know, to actually be in an organisation How does brand connect with them?

Michael Goodhew 28:50
Look, I think again, you pulling that that thread through, I think when people have a sense that they understand the brand, and that the you know, the brand team has done a good job of sort of bringing that to life inside the organisation, it gives people great pride. And you know that that then translates obviously, to how people work as well and how they, you know, their level of discretionary effort that they're willing to put in for the brand if they believe in something, you know, that's, that's beyond just the stuff that goes into the product or the service. You know, that's extremely powerful. And, you know, it's a constant, watching brief, you know, and, you know, like I was saying before that, sometimes I've observed people forget when they walk into the business, that they're a consumer as well out in the real world. And so, you know, it can happen in product quality, for example, where, you know, every every, every business that puts out a product has a QA department and that QA department will often knock on the door of the marketing team and as the sort of the representatives of consumers in the organisation and say, Hey, can we send this product down like this and and many times I've seen seen people whose whose job it is, with quality in the title say, we think it's kind of a right. It's, it's sort of on on just on the wrong side of of okay, but we think it should go out. And that's when it's up to the brand people to say no if it's on the wrong side of Okay, it's on the wrong side of our Canelo we create these, these benchmarks for a reason. And, but but these same people who are saying, Oh no, let's just, you know, we should send this product out because we've got 15 pallets of it, and it's gonna cost us $100,000 they're the same people who will walk into a grocery store at the end of the day and buy a product that they're unhappy with, and then do something about it. So they're not happy as a consumer to accept this level of quality, but then they come into the business and they're there for you know, commercial reasons. They say Are we better just send this stuff out. So I think that's where there is that disconnect with, with with people that sometimes I can leave their consumer hat outside when they come to work, so that they You know, that's another job on the brand team to be able to talk about why that's important and to bring the consumer always into the business.

Scott Oxford 31:10
Yeah, I was listening to podcast the other day Russell Hopcroft was interviewing Adam farrier. And one thing that really resonated for me from that he was talking about the successful businesses these days are often ones where the CEO really understands brand and what you're talking about there is that flow on a brand into every different aspect, it's into HR, it's into quality, it's into to sales, it's the way you know, it's the way someone turns up to sell a product if it's a luxury product and they don't look luxury, you know, there's there's some disconnect there. So when a CEO really gets brand, he or she can lead from the top in that kind of way, but very was actually saying that we're seeing CMOS now being promoted into that CEO kind of role because it's literally that powerful and that image Important and, and it almost it would almost take that level of, of seniority in an organisation to be able to see brand really respected and really understood at every single corner and to have everyone have that strong sense of ownership.

Michael Goodhew 32:18
yeah, look, I think I've seen it happen from many different quarters. So I've seen CEOs who just get brand who have no background in marketing whatsoever, you know, they often the finance guy, or the head sales guy, or go and they get promoted to CEO and they get brand and then you know, I've seen it go the other way as well where the CMO takes the chair and then feels like they've got overcompensate to all the other areas because, you know, they don't want to be seen as you know, just pushing the marketing barrier. So yeah, I think it can go both ways. I definitely think it's a good thing for more CMOS to be taking on those those senior roles and to have a stronger voice at the table, but it's interesting about him very, you know, you talk about him and, you know, he is his book is about, you know, not being a slave to consumer insights, and I use it in the broadest possible sense. But, you know, you know, he's got a quite a lot to say about, you know, consumer research and, and not, you know, I think that the subtitle of the book is something like stop listening or the title is stop listening to consumer. And I think there's a lot a lot to be said for that, that, that sometimes we can get to, sort of taken away with that, especially with some of the more traditional, you know, market research techniques that haven't really changed since the 50s or 60s. And you know, that people are making decisions based on, you know, a thick, chunky deck that they're presented from the research agency, but actually, I'm missing the signal for a lot of noise.

Scott Oxford 33:53
Yeah, I i've always struggled with that aspect of market research where Oh, I also seen it done beautifully, like it is a doc got to get inside someone's head and understand. And I think there is some really great psychology. And I've seen, I've seen discussion groups handled by a really great facilitator really beautifully to be able to get past that whole thing because people turn up knowing that they've got to have an opinion. And if you ask anybody their opinion on something, they may not have won, but who's gonna look stupid by not having an opinion? You know, it's like, I've got a, I've got to formulate some sort of reply. And this is the case, you know, when we present brand work, particularly conceptual work, where we've worked with the leadership team through this, and they say, Oh, we might just put it up in the lunchroom, or, you know, we'll take it out and get everyone's feedback on it. It's like, it's like, you're gonna be asking them to give an opinion on something that they haven't been on a journey for, you know, they haven't got an understanding of it. You're just gonna say, Do you like it or not? Or does it mean something to you? It's, it's just a logo, or it's just, it might be more than it might be a more visual brand, but it's not the brand story. It's not the way we talk, you know, a brand is all of these things and so it Anywhere where you're asking people to give an opinion, but setting them up for failure is is worth isn't so much beautiful creative as died at the hands of that

Michael Goodhew 35:11
it's out of context, you know, it's out of categories. So if you're just showing someone a logo and they're not in that space and not in that category, they're not in market for that type of product, then, yeah, the feedback is, yeah, interesting, at best. It might be, you know, mildly interesting. If someone says, well, that colour doesn't work with that colour, whatever, but it's not really going to inform what you do with the brand.

Scott Oxford 35:33
We always need a filter to run it through that helps us understand what they're really saying, or to filter it out. And that's always

Michael Goodhew 35:42
really difficult, I think to your point yet you're setting certainly setting yourself up for failure. So you got to ask yourself why, you know, why is this the audience that you're choosing to get feedback from other than as I said, just for interesting tidbit here and there, but, but yeah, if they're not in category, if they're not in market, I mean, like the difference between bright silence and brand awareness you know, like a brand salience is when, you know the readiness of a brand to be top of the knee, the top of the, the interest when you're in market, whereas awareness, I might have awareness of that bottled water brand. But if I'm not in bed, that just means that I know of that brand.

Scott Oxford 36:21
And it's like going back and putting the meerkats in sketch drawings on the page without hearing their voices without a really strong sense of, you know, of, of, of how they're going to realise, you know, however, that was tested or not tested, you know, but it's that kind of example, you can't experience that and I think it's useful. It's, it's very helpful. And my next podcast, I'm interviewing market researcher, and as well, so he'll have some great things to say about it as well. But it is for me as a creative, particularly in behaviour change work. I really love formative research where you're you're researching to understand how people think and Feel, not asking them necessarily to give an opinion on whether this is going to work or not. And but at the moment, you know, we're working on a campaign where we, we have put concepts before, not thankfully, in a traditional focus group format, but in a way that has helped us decipher from that the things that we need to know and our gender is very strongly to understand certain aspects of it. But that whole idea of whether it lives or dies, well, this one wins. Yeah, this concept wins because a focus group said that is, thankfully is a way of thinking that we're, we're moving Yeah, well beyond.

Michael Goodhew 37:34
Yeah. And like you I've seen lots of really fantastic market research and market researchers do great work. And, you know, to your point around the focus groups, you're not calling for the end of focus groups by any means. I think I really do. I have a they have a really strong place and done well with a good facilitator. it you know, you can learn a great deal, especially as I say about the breadth of dimensions to A category and what people are thinking about in that space, but yet don't ask them to give you a yes or no on whether your product is going to launch in blue or red. Because, yeah, chances are that's that's not going to turn out. Well. Yeah.

Scott Oxford 38:13
Yeah. Or I'm taking home to see it taking a brand home to see if, if the kids like the colours, yeah, it's like, yeah,

Michael Goodhew 38:19
you know, I mean, the number of projects I've worked on, you know, when you do your, you do your whole focus groups, and then you take the information from that, and you put it into quanta, and then you do you can't study and then you find out that Yep, seven out of 10 people say that definitely buy that product and then you launch the product, exactly as it looked in the market research and then you know, in 12 weeks, you'll be pulling it off the shelf again, if, if that if it was that easy, if you could codify it that well, and break it down and replicate it. Everyone would do it. Now you and I wouldn't be sitting here now. We'd be on our yachts and in the Mediterranean sunning ourselves because we've figured out how to make, make market research work for you know, definite products. This

Scott Oxford 39:02
brings to mind jumping back to fmcg for a minute, they, you know, when we, when we are promoting an fmcg product, we want someone to walk into a supermarket and we want them to be confronted with a number of products and choose ours from that, now that we've been forced to shop online and there is, you know, there is tangible evidence that we are, you know, in a transitional stage, and many of us are now doing that. How does that change things for an fmcg brand to be sort of found when you're not necessarily seeing them all there? You've almost got to search for them, I guess.

Michael Goodhew 39:36
Yeah, you do. So, you know, that's where brand awareness and brand salience really does come to the fore, you know, you know, every brand wants people coming to a category with their brand, top of mind, you know, and and, you know, people talk a lot about brand loyalty. Really, what that means is that you're in that small set of brands that people will consider in a category that come to mind for consideration in their category. So so in that moment, Yeah, I think it's the strong brands will get stronger You know, in the environment you're talking about online sort of at a more sort of macro supply chain level for fmcg brands it's a really good opportunity because you know, you can you can do more in those last few seconds thanks to the strength of digital than you could then you can in a bricks and mortar environment so you know, it's it's not easy to get your brand noticed in a in a culture wars for example because you know, you're fighting it out with a whole brand bunch of other brands for that that bit of shelf real estate that is, you know, in the eye line, it's harder and harder to get, you know, tickets up on store promotional items up on the store, because they want to keep the stores clean, as much as possible. So, it's Yeah, it's a great opportunity in any sort of going a step beyond that. If you're an fmcg business that now is getting set up to actually be able to close the loop and sell yourself direct to consumers as we We've seen you know, with toilet paper and with razors and a whole bunch of other products that used to be only available through traditional retail. It's a massive opportunity.

Scott Oxford 41:08
Hmm. I that was what I was thinking while you're talking man is you know, where is the better place to be because you just because you've got a good product doesn't mean you get on a shelf or in cosmolex you know, it's very, very competitive very difficult to get the you got to win and place there and and do some, some deals of whatever various kinds. Yeah, but you don't have to fight for that. But it you know, it's a more people travel to cause and Woollies online than they will necessarily to you. So, which is the better place for a brand to be?

Michael Goodhew 41:36
Yeah, well, you'd always say both right. So, you know, we as a as an fmcg marketer, you are often you know, really struggling with the power of the the duopoly that Coles and Woollies have and it is difficult to get products and shelf and you have to sell it through many layers of that organisation and then you have to also account for the the cost of supporting your distribution. In that channel, but no brand managers ever complain about the 1500 points of distribution that you get if you get full ranging in Coles and Woollies. So, you know that, you know, it's sort of place you definitely want to be if you've got a fmcg brand, but yeah, I guess what I'm saying is in this environment where more people are going online, and potentially we might see some of these behavioural changes, be sticky and, and and stay around post COVID then it's a good opportunity if you can get your supply chain sorted out, to not be wholly reliant on on the duopoly to be able to get your product to market.

Scott Oxford 42:35
Yeah, and you mentioned toilet paper, and you know, just to throw the brand in there who gives a crap which, I mean, when it first came out, I was thinking they were sort of very niche and very kind of, almost like one of those joke ones that you buy for someone and in a very short space of time they have become, you know, such a stalwart and such, you know, COVID was an incredible opportunity for them to the point where they actually had to limits apply and look after those that have been loyal to them. So, you know, there's a really interesting way that they sort of really short out that loyalty was looking after their, their people, and I guess they had an option to, to manage their entire brand behaviour and their every aspect of their brand by doing that.

Michael Goodhew 43:19
Yeah, absolutely. You know, getting back to the conversation around values, and what are the values of the organisation that that are being lived through the brand? And that's, that's one of them, they could have sold out, it could have just said, you know, we'll put up the prices or, you know, we want to get all those new users, you know, make sure that they're happy because we want them to come back and the other guys yeah, we've you know, that we know that they're committed because they were early adopters, but that wasn't aware of that. But if you if that's what they did, I think that's fantastic. You know, yeah, it does speak to the brand values.

Scott Oxford 43:50
Yeah, close the doors. But yeah, there is always that that funny aspect we need to sell online. The guy the other day who accidentally ordered 27 Tesla's In Germany, and, of course, there was close to home during COVID, there was that family in Toowoomba, who filled their entire garage with crap by accidentally putting a few zeros on the end of their order. So not a brand problem, but just, you know, an interesting aspect that perhaps technically wouldn't happen and cause a Willie So I'm sure that had some ordering errors in their time, but you're not stuck in the CEOs garage? No, I am.

I like to, quote Stephen Covey, who has a great, here's a long quote around what human beings need and it's a big thing to say that a brand can deliver on it but, but you know, covey says, you know, that the greatest need of a human being is psychological survival sets being understood being affirmed, being validated being appreciated. What do you think of the role of brand finding its place in Your heart by by understanding you and affirming you and validating you and appreciating you.

Michael Goodhew 45:07
I think that's the sort of stuff that if you said to your sales team, and probably give you a blank stare and walk out the door, and look at Yeah, there's there's a lot in that. I think, you know, for me, what that that speaks to is that, you know, that there needs to be that value exchange and I don't mean, sort of in a compute purely commercial way, but in an emotional way, you know, and for a brand really to be sticky and to to be meaningful. And by meaningful, I don't mean that you go to bed at night thinking, what are my 10 favourite brands? I really want to engage with those brands tomorrow and the best. I should send them an email and just tell them how great they are. That's, that's, you know, there's no other I can't think of any brands that would elicit that sort of maybe geek like you were as a kid. Yeah, you and I yeah,

but I would have had to write a handwritten letter and put a stamp on it to do it and back in those days, but but but I I think what that means is Yeah, there is an emotional connection there. That means that when you are in market, you know, when you're in the category and interested in the category, that that is the brand that you're kind of, you've got to be given some really good reasons not to go with that one. And, you know, I think that's almost as much as most brands can hope for, you know, like and, you know, Adam Ferriss also in his book, you know, what I said before around for the most part, people just want brands to leave them alone. You know, so it's, it's by no means as lofty as Stephen Covey's quote would have, you would have you think there but, you know, this, that's, that's not to underwrite because people are busy and you know, what? So, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, market research and why one of the reasons that the traditional market research model is being turned on its head is because people are not thinking that way about brands most of the time, you know, with thinking without, you know, Daniel Kahneman sort of one of my my heroes, because he's the Right Thinking Fast and Slow and sort of the godfather of behavioural economics and behavioural science who, who kind of really made it accessible, this idea that we've got, we've got our system one brain, which is our fast reaction, you know, sort of your emotional brain. And then we've got our system two brain which is our rational, more could a cognitively cognitively intensive thinking process part of the brain. Most of us are operating on system one most of the time. And then when we engage system two, it's because we're trying to ratify what system one has already thought of. So if you're a brand that can appeal to that system, one brain you know, that emotional, immediate response, then then you're in a really good place and I think that's where cubbies getting at being be in that space that we're in and be there because you meaningful because you offer something that's relevant. Because you offer something that has some emotional stickiness. That means that yeah, that the system one monkey brain Immediately reacts to like me in the Mazda. Hmm. Yeah.

Scott Oxford 48:04
Or, you know, it's just the that that response where, you know, my mouth waters a little bit when he even mentioned Mars bars. Yeah, kind of that kind of thing. But yeah, look, I'll just clarify too, that that quote was really about human beings it wasn't so much related to brand but for me, I just, I thought this, I'm completely fascinated by the subliminals a brand and how they, how they work on us without us realising it. And I thought it really makes sense to me that certain brands just feel like they get us, you know, they get us and that's, that's not about intruding on that time or space. It's just that when we need them, they're reliable and they they meet our needs, you know, and it doesn't mean just because they're all medicine, not vitamin, you know, they're, they're not necessarily solving all the world's problems but they just, they're, they're comfortable, they're comfortable space that just sort of feel right and feel comfortable and make sense to us. You know, when we when we wear them or wear you know, apples a beautiful example of that, you know, Apple products, just You know, I can't put a case on my phone because it's just it's so beautiful to hold in my hand and I know I'm you know, likely to regret that decision at some point but in the meantime, it just there's a beautiful sleekness to it and I and it's like if only everything in life could just be as as lovely and you know, and simple and and you know, whereas my PC slash Android friends are like everything's locked down you know, it's all pretty it's all style it's you know, there's no substance underneath and it's like, I quietly know that there is substance it's just my substance and I don't want you having my lovely Apple gear either because, you know, that's my look cycling gear. That's my kind of thing.

Michael Goodhew 49:43
Yeah. And I think that's you know, that's a perfect way to sort of loop that back around because you know, for those that for the Android PC guys who you know, want to be able to pull this stuff apart and you know, that's a brand for them to you know, that that because for that very same reason that I was talking about earlier with local or Fred Perry polish, it's, it's It's that you want to feel part of something and for those guys, they feel part of something when they're able to get in and get their hands dirty and, and have a play around. You know behind where is your oh my god no interest in Yeah,

you're locking into something at a different level and that's what appeals to you but yeah and similarly for me so if I put on a Fred Perry polisher, I feel part of that subculture of ska music and, and, you know, as I say, racial unity and, and just being, you know, aligned with something that that's, you know, easy in line with my own values. It's, that's, that's the beauty of it. That's how it works. And that's where really strong brands sing. And that's, you know, as a brand owner, that's where we all want to be. And that's the the sort of brands we want to create,

Scott Oxford 50:43
yeah, to be loved and meaningful and, and connected. And interestingly, you know, a brand like Apple obviously is pretty obsessed with making money but really those other brands, you're talking about the ones that mean something to you and if I was honest about a bunch of you know, like brands that mattered To me, they all would feel to me like businesses that are actually there. Because they're driven to exist by contributing to a culture or by making something beautiful happen. As opposed to that that profit hearing that comes from, you know, having a business that that, that uses research that crafts, this kind of perfect way of getting you to buy something you really don't want or need. And you and I would agree and most people would that there are a lot of brands that we relate to that we don't need them, but they're really nice part of our life. Yeah, they're really that comfortable. They've they form part of who we are and part of our identity. And, you know, that probably brings me to, you know, back to the topic where, you know, we converge in in our passions, which is around the behaviour change in space, and I'm really intrigued personally on how a brand can actually change people's minds and the role that it has in changing changing behaviours. They're a brand that comes to mind that you've seen us change the world. And that has done that in a really clever way.

Michael Goodhew 52:07
Not necessarily that immediately springs to mind, but, you know, maybe talk a little bit about sort of my thoughts on behaviour change and behavioural science, and it might come out the way. You know, I think, you know, for me, the it was a lightbulb moment when I was sitting at a conference in Sydney, and then maybe seven, eight years ago, and there was a guy called john Kieran from a company that was called brain juicer at the time, but system system one to get back to that is what they're called now. And he he put up Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. So I immediately got the book and read it and I could not believe that more people in marketing weren't reading this book, because for a large part, we were doing it we were living it every day. I mean, you know, you could argue everybody who's in business is in the behaviour change business, but Particularly in what we do, like that's, you know, and we, you know why? No, I learned at university that you change people's, their minds and then you'll be able to change their behaviour and, and what Kahneman and others Richard Thaler and others, like him have shown is that you got to change the behaviour. You got to change those, you know, the actions that people are taking, and then the mind follows on from that. And, and so for me, you know, as I say, it was a lightbulb moment. And so I've kind of dedicated the last sort of five years or so to learning more about that. But as I say, we would you know, anyone who's working in marketing or brand is doing it every day, you know, there's some core tenets like social norming, for example, where you say, you know, you were helping six people every minute to save more on their health insurance. That is saying to two people, Oh, geez, there's lots of people doing this. So maybe I should be doing this too. That's the whole idea of social norming salience you know that The idea that something that's noticed more is thought more of, well, you know, this is a sort of a central part of, of behavioural science, but it's also what we do every day. So I think, you know, for me, it's been around rounding out some of those brand and marketing skills, but also beefing up some areas that we perhaps strayed from, even though maybe our intuitions told us differently so but what I love about it is that there's a lot of it is all science so behavioural science is rooted in an understanding of the human brain, you know, the the structure and function of the human brain, our evolution as a species and how we've got to be thinking the way we do and you know, that our driving forces to be safe, for example, and to be safe within groups, you know, that's something that separates primates from a whole bunch of other animals on the planet and, you know, so so the way that the brain is set up around that and and you know, what that means, then to how we behave, because bear in mind, you know, the experiment we call civilization we've only been doing it for about 14,000 years, you know, before that we didn't farm, you know, before agriculture, you didn't have cities. And before cities, you didn't have these sort of concentrated markets. So all this stuff's pretty new, really on a on, you know, the scale of human evolution. So, you know, the behavioural science aspect of my sort of professional life is really sort of drawing from that, that deep well of scientific knowledge that we have, and then saying, Okay, how do we do that to, you know, to get back to Stephen Covey talking about humans? How do we do that to better understand why people do what they do, and therefore put ourselves in the best possible position as a brand to be to be, you know, making the most of that and to be, you know, steering people in the direction that that we think is going to help them you know, get that value exchange. So, you know, for a brand like competitive market, for example, you know, we're offering a service that can be really useful to People that, you know, in the future I can imagine being a true consumer advocacy role, you know, and so, you know, for me, how do I help people? I guess God, you know, we go with the grain of human behaviour rather than trying to push against it and you know, change minds, which is really, really difficult, right? Instead of trying to change something and go against the grain, how do we go with the grain of the human behaviour that's there and help people steer in the direction that's going to help them save money, we're going to help them you know, improve their, their, their health or well being this this, that, to me is sort of the exciting part about adding behavioural science on to marketing and brand.

Scott Oxford 56:40
And certainly at a time like this, where the the world has changed so dramatically. And I heard recently that, you know, how do you get people to become online shoppers, you force them to shop online and you know, there's no way we can force people to shop online. But COVID created an opportunity and Those that were clever, pivoted to use that word that we're all trying to avoid using at the moment, but they pivoted and, you know, into, to be able to sort of catch that and those that did it well sold well and converted into that space and those that were already in that online space, you know, did exceptionally well. But what we've seen now is that that behaviour has changed by an environmental kind of move. And, and so we can't sort of sell short the importance of keeping a really clear eye on what the markets doing and what the world is doing. And knowing that our time may come, you know, anyone who delivers online training and online courses, Now is your time because people are accustomed to that we might be short term a little fatigued from spending too much time on zoom. But the reality is, when are used to meeting people online, we do not need to be in the same room as people. And and as lovely as that is, we don't have to be and so suddenly I can have access training for someone anywhere in the world, whereas previously, I may not You know, there's certainly early adopters, people who did that. But it's just the world has shifted. And so clever brands need to keep an eye on that, and understand, isn't it where they're where their, their product meets this this change in behaviour, or, indeed where it can be a part of causing that change in behaviour?

Michael Goodhew 58:17
Yeah, yeah. And you know, the whole zoom thing is a great example of that, where the technology was there. So that that enabled that to happen if that hadn't been there, then we would have found some other way. But would it have been as good? No, but there were probably team meetings and client meetings that you would have swarmed black and blue that you could not do over video, and then you did them and made them work and made them yeah, and made them great, and in some, in some cases, made them better. You know, that there's definitely been some upsides to it, you know, in terms of people being more human, dropping the guard a little bit, you know, seeing into people's lives, their pets and their kids.

You know, the books on the bookshelf, is on their tables. Yeah, that kind of stuff. So but Yeah, so the behaviour was, as you say the behaviour was forced. And then we've adapted to it. But, but yeah, certainly for brands as well, yeah, those those that are able to adjust at this time are definitely going to get a leg up. But look, I'm not of the school of thought that way. You know, we have a lot of people talking about the new normal and what that's going to contain up. For me, I think a lot of things will snap back, you know, once once either we have a vaccine or, you know, there's enough people that have had it. Once it's no longer you know, threatening the community then I think that you will see a lot of behaviours returned the way they were which in in lots of respects, I think it's gonna be sad that some behaviours, they're around, you know, more time at home, you know, less time in cars and trains. I think some of those behaviours, if they do snap back will be a shame, but there'll be others that are rare, especially around working the way that we work and the amount of travel that we do. I think that some of those will be sticky for commercial reasons. As much as anything else, you know, businesses going to realise that those 20 people that we thought we needed to get in a room, maybe can do it half as often as they used to do.

Scott Oxford 1:00:11
And it will be interesting to see how, you know, the trends in online shopping, whether those who've now had a taste for it, who otherwise probably wouldn't have adopted for a while have and, and again, just the businesses that have brands that have successfully, you know, capitalise on that. Yes. So Michael, before we wrap up, I just I have to come back to you as, as as a brand man, as someone who knows how it works, the machinations of it, you've studied it, you read up on it, you do it for a living. You You have to choose to become a part of a brand. And every time you take a job, and every time we work with a product, that must make that a much bigger decision than it would for the average person who just goes, Oh, y'all like them? I'd like to work for them.

**Michael Goodhew 1:00:56
Yeah. Yeah. And I think everyone's gonna have to sort of make values based judgement on that on which brands that want to work within this certain categories that I just wouldn't work on. So I might respect what they've done with the brand and you know, as a as a brand and marketing advertising person, you'll you'll naturally decode what you're seeing and what they've tried to do with the brand. I find that intellectually interesting. But for me, that, you know, the brands that I've chosen to work on are brands that, that I've had a personal interest in. So going from, from vitamins into probiotics with a brand like value like fit, so it was not the dairy or the great taste of the yoghurt, that that drew me to that it was the the health component and I thought that could really make a difference to people's lives. The you know, from there within, you know, within that business, that dairy business, I moved around to all the different categories, but I can't not kind of fall in love with the brand that I'm working on. And I think that's really important. You know, if if it's if you're a brand person, that you're not in love with your brand, and I think that's all is going to be a struggle. And that, you know, that's just a personal view got a science to back that up but just from my personal experience if I didn't love the brand I was working on I don't think I could do my best work so, you know, whether it's oak flavoured milk and you know, kind of the, the joy that that brings to people in that sort of, you know, on the go consumption moment, you know, the great great taste and the you know, the thick texture of an oat milk that just hits the spot when nothing else will. You know, I worked on a France's biggest cheese brand that we brought out to Australia and absolutely fell in love with the story of that brand and, and you know, and it has some payoffs as well because when you go to sit in front of the buyers at Coles and Woolworths, you exude that passion. And you know, in the in, in the case of that that brand, for example, it was a third generation cheese maker from France. You bring that story and you bring the love of that story to the table and they can't they're still humans at the end of the day. You know, getting back to the human beings and decision making and you know system one thinking and hitting your emotional buttons. You know you deliver in that way and they can't help it but becoming too wrapped up in it so, so I think it does have some benefits as well. But yeah, so for me, it's been around you know what brands align with my values, what brands Am I personally interested in? And then you know, if he could have you know, if you could wave a magic wand, then obviously, you want to work on the brands that that you love. So for me, it would be around music like a brand like Parlophone musical, as I mentioned before, Fred Perrier, you know, you know, these these sorts of brands that you know, really align your personal loves with with the brand themselves, but, um, but yeah, long the short of it is, it's, it's around the values and, and you've you've got to fall in love with your brand a little bit.

Scott Oxford 1:03:46
And I think, I think that answers that question is, how does a, how does a brand, you know, find a place in the hearts of consumers, it actually gives them a reason to care. Yeah, and, and a reason to to like them to care about them to be interested in them to, for them to matter and and the ones that particularly, you know, build a permanent place are those that can make this lovely big promise and, and deliver on it time and time again and and and not betray you you know like a dear friend, you know a brand is a dear friend that that looks after you that meets your needs that that isn't in your face when you don't want it back to that concept, you know of like, you know, it's not there when you don't want it to be there. But when it is it just

Michael Goodhew 1:04:29
hits the spot. And it's so easy for that to unravel, too. Because, you know, there's some famous examples of brands recently that have been caught up in the underpaying staff. And it's really, really damaged their brand reputation because that's not the brand image and the values that they had portrayed out to the world. So yeah, it's that's why it's got to flow all the way through the business and people have got to live and breathe it every day. Mm hmm.

Scott Oxford 1:04:53
Yeah, well, I've got a real taste for chocolate milk man. Might have to be an oak. Have to go and grab one But Michael, thanks so much. It's been brilliant talking to you and I every bit as as cool as I imagined it would be. So thanks for your time. Thanks, Scott. Appreciate it. So if you've loved our conversation today and want to hear other opinions, other interviews and other thoughts on the brand, why don't you subscribe to our podcast? It also if you've got a guest that you think would be, bring some great insights to the show, then we'd love you to connect us with them. And you can do that through the links. And also if there's a brand question you want answered, please send it through. We'd love to come back to you. Just to finish off, I always quote the words of my favourite famous fictional admin Don Draper from the series Mad Men, and his best quote always has to be if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation.